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View Poll Results: Are they cheating again?
Yes 132 67.01%
No 53 26.90%
I don't have a clue by four. 12 6.09%
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Old 05-15-03, 10:12 AM   #133
Miksu
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Someone said that this thing is only in GT4 and was wrong, GT2 has the same thing going on.

Many have asked for more proof. Here is a post from B3D:
Quote:
Just as an updated FYI on the situation. I have used this release of 3DM03 on an NV31 and both 43.45 and the WHQL 43.51 drivers. The apparant pixel bleed was present in both these sets of drivers on both GT2 and GT4, however in the 43.45's the 'clipped' areas only appeared in GT2, it wasn't until 43.45 drivers that the 'clipped' areas appeared in GT4. I've not looked at the 44.03 drivers. (c) 'Wavey' Dave, Beyond3D
Also FutureMark should post some info about this shortly.
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Old 05-15-03, 10:18 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally posted by Behemoth
i think nvidia screw the 3DMark for a few good reasons
No matter what nVidia were trying to do, I think the only thing they've ended up screwing is themselves. Is anybody going to trust benchmark results of nVidia products from now on?

Look how the whole 'Quack' fiasco has stuck with ATi even after a few years - The same thing is going to happen to nVidia, and it could be very damaging for them.
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Old 05-15-03, 10:26 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hanners
Cheating for a good reason... Whatever next?

Perhaps nVidia should burn down ATi headquarters to help out all those poor, confused consumers. After all, it would be arson, but for a good reason...

You prick, you made me not only spit coffee but I choked a hit too!

I can't believe the people here arguing that it's ok for nVidia to cheat at benchmarks since they aren't games! It wouldn't be such a biggy-D if NVIDIA WASN'T PARADING THE DAMNED SCORES AROUND AS INDICATIVE OF THEIR PERFORMANCE LEAD!!!!!

(Ahem...sorry, been playing VC and am still a bit hyped. )

Sorry folks, nVidia got caught with their hand in the cookie jar and there ain't no easy way out for them. The best thing they could do right now is admit it and move on, but even that would suck for them at this point.

Sucks to be nVidia about now I reckon. (I am having WAY too much fun with this! )
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Old 05-15-03, 10:35 AM   #136
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ati have been caught cheating too, so do i trust ati?
i would only trust real world performance, real game benchmarks, but not 3DMark, but you can use 3DMark to understand more about your video card tho.
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Old 05-15-03, 10:37 AM   #137
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The biggest point is its pretty obvious they *tried* to do it in Doom-III also. But JC had a clue and did not let them use their own recorded *Time Demo*.

It shows, yet again a marked pattern of unethical behavior on a wide variety of issues. Thats all. This kind of stuff is the only thing i have ever had a problem with Nvidia over.

EDIT: In fact I wonder if they found a way to cheat in the Timedemo they used anyway... its hard to say at this point.
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Old 05-15-03, 10:41 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally posted by Behemoth
ati have been caught cheating too, so do i trust ati?
That's exactly my point - ATi are still lumped with the 'Quack' issue of years ago, and nVidia will have to live with the '3DMark cheats' label for years.

I'm also interested to see what's going to happen when the time comes for the next version of 3DMark to be developed... I don't suppose FutureMark will be too interested in having nVidia on board as a technical partner any more.
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Old 05-15-03, 10:50 AM   #139
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I just don't get it! How can Nvidia allow this to happen? I can't believe that something like this could just slip thru. What's really scary is that they had their own Doom 3 demo ready to benchmark and ID gave the review sites a different one. I gotta believe that JC might have had an idea that Nvidia could and would pull off a stunt like this. I think it's obvious that Nvidia ws not able to pull off any of these tricks (optimizations for a game is not cheating) in the Doom 3 bench we saw results for, and they still had great results.

It could be that Nvidia is under pressure to keep the NV35's scores competitive in 3Dmark03 because even though they don't like it, they know everyone looks at them. So maybe all they did was cut corners in this benchmark and that's no big deal, because it isn't a game. But we must realize that if they did it there, they COULD have done it for any of the existing game demos and that would be extremely misleading. I would suggest that we wait until more is known before we condemn them, but that 3DMark03 move was just plain stupid! Let's just hope that's as deep as it goes, cause if not, we may be witnessing the beginning of the end for Nvidia - no joke!

The sad part is that the hardware appears to be great and Nvidia may have only done this to make ATI look a lot slower when in reality it's a lot closer. We just don't know if that goes for just 3Dmark03 or if it also affected many of the game benches.

And I'm still an NVidiot...........at least until this cleared up.
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Old 05-15-03, 10:53 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
The biggest point is its pretty obvious they *tried* to do it in Doom-III also. But JC had a clue and did not let them use their own recorded *Time Demo*.

It shows, yet again a marked pattern of unethical behavior on a wide variety of issues. Thats all. This kind of stuff is the only thing i have ever had a problem with Nvidia over.

EDIT: In fact I wonder if they found a way to cheat in the Timedemo they used anyway... its hard to say at this point.
Funny how we were thinking & posting the same thing about Doom 3. Seems pretty obvious though........
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Old 05-15-03, 10:54 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally posted by schuey74
I just don't get it! How can Nvidia allow this to happen?
It's simple: they are a desperate company.
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Old 05-15-03, 11:00 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally posted by otheipion
It's simple: they are a desperate company.
havent some post mentioned the nvidia boss put great pressure on the driver team?
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Old 05-15-03, 11:02 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
The biggest point is its pretty obvious they *tried* to do it in Doom-III also. But JC had a clue and did not let them use their own recorded *Time Demo*.

It shows, yet again a marked pattern of unethical behavior on a wide variety of issues. Thats all. This kind of stuff is the only thing i have ever had a problem with Nvidia over.

EDIT: In fact I wonder if they found a way to cheat in the Timedemo they used anyway... its hard to say at this point.
Its harder to do it in timedemos. If you could think clearly it would mean work for nvidia trying to analyze every timedemo (there are a dozen of them in ut2003) and optimizing for them. Also it would mean that they run the risk of someone running another map in timedemo mode and finding that the perf sucks. Also since the ut2003 timedemo starts of a seed all people have to do is change the seen and you will see different results. So in short rigging timedemos is way too complicated and easily detectable thing to do.
The thing they would have done in the doom3 demo they prepared would be to include tons of multitexturing and also only have those things that the nv3x architecture can run good ( every architechture has a strength and a weakness ) . For example R350 beats the nv35 in inferno and loses in the rest. If they were doing occlusion here in software nv3x would have easily won since the reason R350 beats nv35 in inferno is due to better culling.
So the conclusion you could draw is
1) Its a lot easier to "cheat" in 3dmark03 since tests you know what the test is doing. Also all they have to do is release a new set of drivers which doesnt do this in the freelook mode and they are not "cheating" anymore. For all we know ATI do this already .
2) Its not easy to cheat in game timedemos and its way to easy to detect the cheating. So most people wont touch them. And in UT2003 its really really easy to detect this by changing the seed and rerunning the benchmark.
3) So assumming that nvidia cheats in 3DM03 and does not cheat in the rest of the games it follows that 3DM03 does not represent true game performance and should not be used. In fact one of the reason this was necessitated was since the reviewers were going to go ahead and use 3dmark anyway (inspite of nvidia's statement that they didnt like it ) and also since most of the users engage in the "my dick is greater than yours since I have the bigger 3dm03 scores". I think the fact that people value the 3dm03 scores is obvious from your sig where you even see the need to mention that its second in your class. Of course that doesnt say how the card plays games.

And anyway people have short memories. 99% of the people wont know about this. About 90% of the rest 1% wont care about this once a fix is released and most of the rest will forget about it. There will be only a remaining handful of people who will keep discussing in forums (like the ATI quack issue) for sometime in vain.
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Old 05-15-03, 11:06 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by Behemoth
ati have been caught cheating too, so do i trust ati?

I agree, but with some exceptions...

1. ATi now has had a CLEAN track record with the community for damn near a year+ now where they have REALLY been bending over backwards to help out/keep us informed/let us give input on their drivers.

2. ATi has a beta program that gives the community inside access to the beta drivers so we have a much better feel for what they are doing with their drivers. (I can't say that from personal experience...not yet. )

3. ATi doesn't have the PR-machine-from-hell trying to buy off every damned reviewer & website out there that is for sale if'n their hardware ain't up to snuff!

Yes, ATi did cheat; but ATi used to suck too. They don't cheat anymore, and they don't suck anymore.

nVidia is just starting to cheat, so...
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