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View Poll Results: Are they cheating again?
Yes 132 67.01%
No 53 26.90%
I don't have a clue by four. 12 6.09%
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Old 05-15-03, 10:27 AM   #145
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omfg. you nvidiots just sicken me.
You say synthetic benchmark has nothing to do with real gaming.
You're wrong. It has quite much to do with. Ofc it doesn't have everything to do with.
Yet, it still has very strong positive correlation with real gaming.

I think it's abused and needs some check at bay upto reasonable extent but it has own rights and uses. With synthetic benchmarks, you can compare your system with other similar system conveniently/quickly and can refer to vast database with so many various settings. You can check if anything gone wrong with your machine also.

But just because it could be cheated easily, it should be done away with?

So in the school, tests and exams are useless and should be cheated on till it get abandoned just because it's cheatable more easily than other methods to measure your achievement of study.

IMO 5900u is a excellent vga and better than 9800p.
But you guys are simply sick. Shame on you. You're no better than nvidia.
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Old 05-15-03, 10:31 AM   #146
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Somehow this cheat (as most ATI users are already calling it, although that still needs to be proved) makes no sense whatsoever.

First, why cheat only in GT4 which counts as 38.7 of the whole 3dmark03 score and not in GT3 (47.1)! And why not cheat then directly in the all the 3 major 3dmark01 tests (GT2-4)! After all the visual quality of the graphics did not increase as one could have thought in the beginning. In fact the IQ now is almost the same as the one rendered with the directx software rasterizer.

Secondly, the GFX 5900 Pro is not just in 3dmark02 faster than the competition. In fact, in 3dmark03 the difference between the 5900 and the 9800 is smaller than in almost all the other gaming test... or is nvidia also cheating like hell in all other games. na, don't think so. All the major hardware site are reporting improved IQ with the latest driver...

And last (concerning again 3dmark03), why would nvidia do something stupid like that? After all they had the developper version of 3dmark03 until they quit the beta developping team and knew that you could move freely around in the 3dmark gaming test with that version. If would have been found out some day later or sooner. Why sacrify you company image/brand for just some stupid points in a synthetic bench, even if it's 3dmark03.

Again, the doom3 results show what the nv3x is capable of, even if most ATI users are thinking again that nvidia has sacrified IQ for a better score. If nvidia offers better performance than ATI, than nvidia must be cheating, right? Hopefully Carmack will have a plan update on that subject...

This whole 3dmark03 affaire just shows one thing, and that is that the competiton in the graphiccard market has become shockingly merciless, intelligent discussions no longer exist, just random bashing to put your "beloved" company in a better light. The "scene" has never been so sad as the last few months...

Last edited by vacs; 05-15-03 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 05-15-03, 10:41 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally posted by vacs
Somehow this cheat (as most ATI users are already calling it, although that still needs to be proved) makes no sense whatsoever.

First, why cheat only in GT4 which counts as 38.7 of the whole 3dmark03 score and not in GT3 (47.1)! And why not cheat then directly in the all the 3 major 3dmark01 tests (GT2-4)! After all the visual quality of the graphics did not increase as one could have thought in the beginning. In fact the IQ now is almost the same as the one rendered with the directx software rasterizer.

Secondly, the GFX 5900 Pro is not just in 3dmark02 faster than the competition. In fact, in 3dmark03 the difference between the 5900 and the 9800 is smaller than in almost all the other gaming test... or is nvidia also cheating like hell in all other games. na, don't think so. All the major hardware site are reporting improved IQ with the latest driver...

And last (concerning again 3dmark03), why would nvidia do something stupid like that? After all they had the developper version of 3dmark03 until they quit the beta developping team and knew that you could move freely around in the 3dmark gaming test with that version. If would have been found out some day later or sooner. Why sacrify you company image/brand for just some stupid points in a synthetic bench, even if it's 3dmark03.

Again, the doom3 results show what the nv3x is capable of, even if most ATI users are thinking again that nvidia has sacrified IQ for a better score. If nvidia offers better performance than ATI, than nvidia must be cheating, right? Hopefully Carmack will have a plan update on that subject...

This whole 3dmark03 affaire just shows one thing, and that is that the competiton in the graphiccard market has become shockingly merciless, intelligent discussions no longer exist, just random bashing to put your "beloved" company in a better light. The "scene" has never been so sad as the last few months...
I don't think you read the whole extreme tech article... re read it and you will see that the 'cheats' are employed in at least 2 games and screenies are posted from the space mission test as well as the nature test...

also the doom III test scores are meaningless @ this point in time... that should be obvious...

comparing the 2 products based on differeing levels of driver maturity for the same gaming title is NOT a balanced way of looking @ things and saying such and such is better @ this...

obviously I would expect nv3x products to do better using their nv30 path.. but I would also expect the r3xx parts to be quite competitive based on the arb2 path as well... once the drivers are optimized for the game...



concerning the other gaming titles tested... the point many raise... is that nvidia is faster with lower IQ and hence doing less work... take that as you will...

IMO the nv35 is the fastest gpu on the block.. but things like this 3dmark03 flap will only tarnish the image of the product AND the company... recall 44.03 was released with the nv35...
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Old 05-15-03, 10:45 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally posted by vacs
Somehow this cheat (as most ATI users are already calling it, although that still needs to be proved) makes no sense whatsoever.
It's being called a cheat because that's exactly what it is, there is no other reasonable explanation for it, and the only reason that web sites aren't calling it a cheat as their official line is because they don't want a phone call from nVidia's legal department.


Quote:
Originally posted by vacs
First, why cheat only in GT4 which counts as 38.7 of the whole 3dmark03 score and not in GT3 (47.1)! And why not cheat then directly in the all the 3 major 3dmark01 tests (GT2-4)! After all the visual quality of the graphics did not increase as one could have thought in the beginning. In fact the IQ now is almost the same as the one rendered with the directx software rasterizer.
They are also cheating in GT2 (the Battle of Proxycon). I'm not sure it would be possible to cheat efficiently in the Troll's Lair test because of the way the whole scene works. GT2 and 4 have more obvious opportunities for cheating.

As for 3DMark2001, I'm not sure if there is a developer version available that lets you move off the standard camera path like there is with 3DMark2003 - Maybe nVidia are cheating in 2001, but nobody can prove it? An interesting question though, and one I wouldn't mind seeing investigated.


Quote:
Originally posted by vacs
All the major hardware site are reporting improved IQ with the latest driver...
There are also people pointing out severe visual anomalies and 'shimmering' pixels in games...


Quote:
Originally posted by vacs
This whole 3dmark03 affaire just shows one thing, and that is that the competiton in the graphiccard market has become shockingly merciless, intelligent discussions no longer exist, just random bashing to put your "beloved" company in a better light. The "scene" has never been so sad as the last few months...
I hope you aren't honestly saying that having these strange goings-on being pointed out is 'bashing'. If this affair is showing anything, it's the lengths some people will go to to defend blatantly underhand tactics.
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Old 05-15-03, 10:53 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
I agree, but with some exceptions...

1. ATi now has had a CLEAN track record with the community for damn near a year+ now where they have REALLY been bending over backwards to help out/keep us informed/let us give input on their drivers.

2. ATi has a beta program that gives the community inside access to the beta drivers so we have a much better feel for what they are doing with their drivers. (I can't say that from personal experience...not yet. )

3. ATi doesn't have the PR-machine-from-hell trying to buy off every damned reviewer & website out there that is for sale if'n their hardware ain't up to snuff!

Yes, ATi did cheat; but ATi used to suck too. They don't cheat anymore, and they don't suck anymore.

nVidia is just starting to cheat, so...
i dont know, ati seem to keep doing driver tweak that get better scores from benchmark that results in no real world performance gain, SPECviewperf 7.0 is an example, version 7.1 was made "to discourage optimizations that benefit the benchmark, but might not improve real-world application performance" and ati cards are doing not so good in 7.1 as in 7.0, i am not sure on this one tho.
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Old 05-15-03, 10:55 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by Behemoth
i dont know, ati seem to keep doing driver tweak that get better scores from benchmark that results in no real world performance gain, SPECviewperf 7.0 is an example, version 7.1 is made "to discourage optimizations that benefit the benchmark, but might not improve real-world application performance" and ati cards are doing not so good as in 7.0, i am not sure on this one tho.
It's worth remembering that SPECviewperf isn't a gaming benchmark, so any speed increases seen there aren't going to translate to higher performance in games.
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Old 05-15-03, 10:57 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally posted by Behemoth
i dont know, ati seem to keep doing driver tweak that get better scores from benchmark that results in no real world performance gain, SPECviewperf 7.0 is an example, version 7.1 was made "to discourage optimizations that benefit the benchmark, but might not improve real-world application performance" and ati cards are doing not so good in 7.1 as in 7.0, i am not sure on this one tho.
if you are familiar with ati drivers you will realise they do not always give a big BOOST in performance but often times do make visual effects in games better even with a LOSS in performance...

I can't comment on specviewperf since I don't use that benchie..
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Old 05-15-03, 10:58 AM   #152
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Its harder to do it in timedemos. If you could think clearly it would mean work for nvidia trying to analyze every timedemo (there are a dozen of them in ut2003) and optimizing for them. Also it would mean that they run the risk of someone running another map in timedemo mode and finding that the perf sucks
Well if you would think clearly.. Nvidia had complete control over the Doom-III test and initially recorded their OWN timedemo which camack disaproved of...

We are not talking about cheating in all timedemos.. Just very specific ones. I also would not be suprised to find out this exact same practice is being done on the Cathedral demo is Serious Sam, and the default Demo 1 From Q3. Nvidia is always scoring really bizzare high scores in those two cases as well. Even their Traditional Speed hit from AA+AF seems to disapear on GF4 cards when running SS timedemos...

I am not the one that needs to stop and think here.. You are..
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Old 05-15-03, 10:59 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hanners
It's worth remembering that SPECviewperf isn't a gaming benchmark, so any speed increases seen there aren't going to translate to higher performance in games.
i mean it may just be the same kind of cheating behaviour, but this time they are cheating professional users.
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Old 05-15-03, 11:01 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally posted by Behemoth
i dont know, ati seem to keep doing driver tweak that get better scores from benchmark that results in no real world performance gain, SPECviewperf 7.0 is an example, version 7.1 was made "to discourage optimizations that benefit the benchmark, but might not improve real-world application performance" and ati cards are doing not so good in 7.1 as in 7.0, i am not sure on this one tho.
I don't have an ATi card right now and I don't use SPECviewperf in me benchies so I can't disagree with ya, but I'm reserving judgement on ATi's drivers until I can get a chance to run the Cat 3.4's thru me own personal game grinder.

Hey, I don't trust ATi blindly either...they've just been a whole lot better about keeping the community informed of what is going on with their drivers and seem to respond to the communities wants/needs/complaints a whole lot better than nVidia and their "The way you were meant to be played" attitude. (Me LOVES that quote! )
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Old 05-15-03, 11:01 AM   #155
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mean it may just be the same kind of cheating behaviour, but this time they are cheating professional users.
that is such a retarded comment..

It is just unbelievable what some of you people are posting. Have you no shame? Even i am not this big a fanboi.. its embarassing..
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Old 05-15-03, 11:06 AM   #156
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Originally posted by Behemoth
i mean it may just be the same kind of cheating behaviour, but this time they are cheating professional users.
[blind fanboy mode] Maybe they are trying to show how stupid using synthetic benchmarks are, so it's okay to cheat? [/blind fanboy mode]

I don't even know enough about how SPECviewperf works to be able to comment on the possibility of cheating in it, and like dig says I wouldn't blindly trust ATI either - If you have evidence of ATi cheating you want to bring to the table, then please do, but until then it's nothing more than throwing wild accusations around.
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