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View Poll Results: Are they cheating again?
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I don't have a clue by four. 12 6.09%
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Old 05-18-03, 01:35 AM   #469
muzz
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Behemoth
honestly i didnt read the whitepaper, i am not going to, i am just waiting to see how nvidia is proven to cheat 3DMark yet, even extremetech said it was guess that the clip plane was hardcoded.
there are 2 things i dont want to blindly believe in so fast:
1. it must not be a bug.
2. it must be a cheat.
i know it looks like a cheat, but i am patient enough to wait the facts coming out. Also 3DMark definately looks like a cheating benchmark to me, so its absolutely no problem for everyone cheat this benchmark, an eye for an eye, i am not saying who has cheated who has not i say no problem. NV30 path is real, 3DMark totally ignore its existance, doom3 is gonna use it, as is every other doom3 engine based games in the future, 3DMark does nothing but marketing video cards for its members by interpreting non-members video card capablities in an non-practical way. if any company cheat 3DMark, i appreciate it, its evil, it only advocates members cheating.
futuremark has yet to make a competitive game engine, doom3 use of nv30 path tell me its the way to go, 3DMark vision is wrong, its way to interpret 3D capability is naive.
but thanks for the link
What?
This is some of the worst stuff I have seen from you. and tbo honest I have seen alot.
3DMark totally ignore it's existanse ( your wording)? lmao where do you get this stuff?
Non -Practical way? Do you mean by the DX9 specs? PLEASE CLARIFY as that is total rubbish, and you know it.
Non- Members? Do you mean the fact that NV KNEW it would not be able to compete, and it pulled out crying foul?
Gimme a break with this crap.... you know what you are spewing is bs, yet you have the audacity to try and play us for fools.
Get over it man, that is bs and YOU KNOW IT!!

You appreciate cheats? Well you are in the right crowd I believe then( fanboy behavior as usual.....).
If ya gonna be a fanboy you should be pizzed that they are pulling this crap (on YOU AS WELL) instead of sticking up for them.

Edited for clarity. reword.
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Last edited by muzz; 05-18-03 at 01:46 AM.
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Old 05-18-03, 01:36 AM   #470
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Quote:
Clearly nvidia is more mad that the gf4 looks poorer compared to the R300.

Umm, the R200's use PS1.4 > now the 8500's are pretty even w/the GF4 Ti's in the bench.

This isn't the 1st nVidia driver that is a "Cheat" in 3DM03 (which is only 3months old) according to the "Requirements" set forth for a "Default" benchmark score by FM. Read the "Help" file > it's all right there.

My favorite nVidia lie: http://www.nvidia.com/docs/lo/1468/S...4_MX_92502.pdf

GF4 MX cards "Fully support DX8" We all know how true that is. Even the Ti's (which they claim the same) don't > PS 1.4, 1.3, 1.2 & 1.1 are all part of DX8 & the cards do NOT support the use of PS1.4 ... fully or otherwise.
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Old 05-18-03, 01:43 AM   #471
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Behemoth, you make 0 sense

Quote:
yep i am blaming 3DMark, it is a cheating benchmark in my humble opinion. it provides better opportunity to members to cheat as well as fails to indicate certain cards actual performance, members or not.
even though futuremark is trying to make members cards look better than they actually are, its failure of truthfully benchmarking the nv30 real performance left nvidia no choice but leave.
The only person cheating here is Nvidia, and they are NOT members, if youre going to say Ati is cheating at 3dmark atleast try to back it up.

Quote:
not only is 3DMark not fair to non-members, there was unfair things happening in the members side as well, such as how futuremark treated FX badly.
How did it treat FX badly? Is it because of the rejection of non-whql driver scores? Thats not futuremarks fault, thats nvidias fault for making the Nv30 run as fast as it did because it used lower precision, precision not up to Directx specifcations and 3dmark is a directx benchmark so they kicked out non-whql scores

Quote:
one reason is to get rid of 3DMark optimization code from the driver so it does better in every other actual games.
WTF are you talking about?

Quote:
nvidia didnt like the ways they benchmark its cards so they left, yes you can think that it might be the truth that FX was actually inferior in every way and futuremark reflected truthfully what FX was capable of and there was no way futuremark could make FX look good. but after hearing JC said nv30 path was fastest, i believe in nvidia side of story more, and 3DMark have never been a good indicator of real game performance to me anyway.
You have no idea what the words "Nv30 path" mean do you? Go read what John Carmack said again, he said on the Fx the Nv30 path was fastest and on Ati cards Arb2 or R300 paths were fastest for Ati cards.

3dmark is NOT OPENGL, therefore it contains no proprietary driver paths to optimize performance for certain cards and uses a unified standard on which to test both sides

Quote:
to me, 3DMark never represents true game performance, dx9 is not an exception too.
You make no sense, im guessing you dont even know what dx9 is either?

Quote:
geforce 1/2/3/4 cards look good in 3DMark, but FX cards dont, so nvidia left.
You know why FX cards dont look good? Because your company which seems to own you decided to screw you by lower its precision below dx9 standards. Luckily for the consumer Nvidia managed to fix this in Nv35, only took them 2 tries and at the expense of the consumer

Quote:
NV30 path is real, 3DMark totally ignore its existance, doom3 is gonna use it, as is every other doom3 engine based games in the future
Once again you have no idea what "Nv30 path" means and are just spounting random things to make you look smart

Quote:
Also 3DMark definately looks like a cheating benchmark to me, so its absolutely no problem for everyone cheat this benchmark, an eye for an eye, i am not saying who has cheated who has not i say no problem
Please show me where Ati has ever cheated in 3dmark, please, i beg of you

Last edited by reever2; 05-18-03 at 01:58 AM.
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Old 05-18-03, 02:06 AM   #472
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Arrow It's a bad sign when...

...even I start getting tired of hearing the same arguments repeated endlessly in a 22 odd page long thread.

I agree with the points you raised, but you're not going to be changing anyone's mind here any time soon. Everyone seems pretty well entrenched in their positions, and there just ain't anything we can hope to accomplish here by repeating the same arguments over and over except to start flame wars & bitterness.

Enough, please.

I think we can ALL agree that we'll have a better idea of what the impact/ramifications/possible outcomes of this are going to be in a few days, and that there probably ain't going to be a whole lot happening on it until at least Monday.

Can we please just call a truce?

The truth will be out in the fullness of time, or else we can all start up arguing in another thread later.

Methinks it's time to move on from this one for a bit.

I'd like to request this thread be closed, anyone wanna second it?
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Old 05-18-03, 02:15 AM   #473
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Since Kyle closed the thread & AJ is waiting (what? You think you're the only one that gets around?) > I'll second that motion & raise ya 2 posts @ DH!

If every site used Omega Drivers for nVidia & ATI > we wouldn't have this problem.

I'm done.
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Old 05-18-03, 02:19 AM   #474
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Quote:
Originally posted by JAV
(what? You think you're the only one that gets around?)
Hell no! Where would the fun be in that?

The fun bit about being a wanderer is you never know who you're gonna bump into where...but it always seems like you come across a friendly face or two wherever you go.

That's why it's a bit like a social life to me, I reckon. (My big question is WHY do I type with such a weird goofy accent? I do NOT usually speak like that, I got a generic midwestern accent...Chicagoan/RegionRat. "Me thinks", "y'all", and what the hell does "pagh" mean anyways? )
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[SIZE=1][I]"It was very important to us that NVIDIA did not know exactly where to aim. As a result they seem to have over-engineered in some aspects creating a power-hungry monster which is going to be very expensive for them to manufacture. We have a beautifully balanced piece of hardware that beats them on pure performance, cost, scalability, future mobile relevance, etc. That's all because they didn't know what to aim at."
-R.Huddy[/I] [/SIZE]
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Old 05-18-03, 02:24 AM   #475
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Quote:
Originally posted by muzz
What?
This is some of the worst stuff I have seen from you. and tbo honest I have seen alot.
3DMark totally ignore it's existanse ( your wording)? lmao where do you get this stuff?
Non -Practical way? Do you mean by the DX9 specs? PLEASE CLARIFY as that is total rubbish, and you know it.
Non- Members? Do you mean the fact that NV KNEW it would not be able to compete, and it pulled out crying foul?
Gimme a break with this crap.... you know what you are spewing is bs, yet you have the audacity to try and play us for fools.
Get over it man, that is bs and YOU KNOW IT!!

You appreciate cheats? Well you are in the right crowd I believe then( fanboy behavior as usual.....).
If ya gonna be a fanboy you should be pizzed that they are pulling this crap (on YOU AS WELL) instead of sticking up for them.

Edited for clarity. reword.
you got it i am not replying your post, i will give you a break
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Old 05-18-03, 02:26 AM   #476
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Quote:
Originally posted by reever2
Behemoth, you make 0 sense



The only person cheating here is Nvidia, and they are NOT members, if youre going to say Ati is cheating at 3dmark atleast try to back it up.



How did it treat FX badly? Is it because of the rejection of non-whql driver scores? Thats not futuremarks fault, thats nvidias fault for making the Nv30 run as fast as it did because it used lower precision, precision not up to Directx specifcations and 3dmark is a directx benchmark so they kicked out non-whql scores



WTF are you talking about?



You have no idea what the words "Nv30 path" mean do you? Go read what John Carmack said again, he said on the Fx the Nv30 path was fastest and on Ati cards Arb2 or R300 paths were fastest for Ati cards.

3dmark is NOT OPENGL, therefore it contains no proprietary driver paths to optimize performance for certain cards and uses a unified standard on which to test both sides



You make no sense, im guessing you dont even know what dx9 is either?



You know why FX cards dont look good? Because your company which seems to own you decided to screw you by lower its precision below dx9 standards. Luckily for the consumer Nvidia managed to fix this in Nv35, only took them 2 tries and at the expense of the consumer



Once again you have no idea what "Nv30 path" means and are just spounting random things to make you look smart



Please show me where Ati has ever cheated in 3dmark, please, i beg of you
trying to talk to people that make 0 sense doesnt make any more sense
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Old 05-18-03, 02:26 AM   #477
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Default Re: It's a bad sign when...

Quote:
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
...even I start getting tired of hearing the same arguments repeated endlessly in a 22 odd page long thread.

I agree with the points you raised, but you're not going to be changing anyone's mind here any time soon. Everyone seems pretty well entrenched in their positions, and there just ain't anything we can hope to accomplish here by repeating the same arguments over and over except to start flame wars & bitterness.

Enough, please.

I think we can ALL agree that we'll have a better idea of what the impact/ramifications/possible outcomes of this are going to be in a few days, and that there probably ain't going to be a whole lot happening on it until at least Monday.

Can we please just call a truce?

The truth will be out in the fullness of time, or else we can all start up arguing in another thread later.

Methinks it's time to move on from this one for a bit.

I'd like to request this thread be closed, anyone wanna second it?
I'll second that. Please close this thread and all threads like it. Also, please don't start any more threads like it for at least two more days! We need a break from all the bickering.
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Old 05-18-03, 02:29 AM   #478
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Nah I kinda like it when the folks make an ass of themselves.... it pre-discredits anything they have to say later........
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Old 05-18-03, 02:32 AM   #479
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Quote:
Originally posted by muzz
Nah I kinda like it when the folks make an ass of themselves.... it pre-discredits anything they have to say later........
i have my a** list in my head
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Old 05-18-03, 02:33 AM   #480
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Wow. Behemoth, I don't even know where to start. I'll give it a shot.

You have stated that 3dmark03 is a cheating benchmark, where NO evidence has been given to support that accusation. Yet, you defend Nvidia with this cheating when pretty damning evidence has been given to support that accusation.

This one takes the cake:

Quote:
sometimes you are forced to self defense, i would do anything just to protect my family if necessary.
i would wait to see how its proven as a cheat, that is more objective, what good does it do if i believe its a cheat right now? what bad does it do if i wait for things getting proved?
Anything to protect your family? Are you related to Jen-Hsun Huang? It's a video card company man.

Quote:
not only is 3DMark not fair to non-members, there was unfair things happening in the members side as well, such as how futuremark treated FX badly.
In what way did 3dmark treat Nvidia badly? I've never seen anything about 3dmark treating Nvidia badly. Please, enlighten me.

Quote:
yep i am blaming 3DMark, it is a cheating benchmark in my humble opinion. it provides better opportunity to members to cheat as well as fails to indicate certain cards actual performance, members or not.
even though futuremark is trying to make members cards look better than they actually are, its failure of truthfully benchmarking the nv30 real performance left nvidia no choice but leave.
Man, where do I go with this statement.

First you say 3dmark trys to make members cards look better. Then you say they didn't try to make Nvidia's card look better, so they left. So your saying they tried to make everyone's card look better but Nvidia's? Do you even realize how ridiculous that sounds. Do you have ANY evidence that they tried to make everyone else but Nvida look good? ANY evidence at all?

You then go on to say they "fail to indicate a certain cards actual performance". How would they actually go about "indicating" the nv30's performance. Like carmack? By including an Nv30 optimized path? That my friend would make it a cheating benchmark. They made a dx9 benchmark. No IHV optimizations. So Nvidia didn't get Nv30 optimizations and left but you blame 3dmark? At this point I'm really beginning to wonder if you are related to Jen-Hsun Huang. Or at least "smoking something hallucigenic" as he likes to say.

You also say they make it easier for members to cheat. You do realize the press are among the group of beta testers right? How do you think ET uncovered this story? Because they are beta members. Do you think the press are going to see what they suspect is a cheat and not investigate? You don't think they would investigate if they saw something to indicate ATI or Matrox or any other company were cheating? You think the whole world is against Nvidia? Nvidia was a member through most of the development of 3dmark03. They didn't bail out until right before 3dmark was released. What could that reason be? Maybe because they new the Nv30 performs poorly in dx9 and 3dmark wouldn't optimize around the nv30's weaknesses?

Quote:
they should not be limited by futuremark vision of ways of benchmarking coz 3DMark doesnt show how good FX is, it doesnt show how doom3 was coded, it only encourages people buying strict dx9 microsoft envisioned video cards.
Of course it doesn't show how doom3 was coded, it is a DX9 benchmark. Doom3 is opengl which allows for vendor specific extensions. It has a ton of vendor specific extensions which program writers have to account for. DX9 does not allow for vendor specific extensions. It is set as a standard to keep from having a ton of different extensions that program writers have to take the time to code for. You should be able to program a game in dx9 and have it work on ALL dx9 cards. You want 3dmark to break dx9 standards? You are mad because they won't break the standard?

Quote:
but after hearing JC said nv30 path was fastest, i believe in nvidia side of story more,
John Carmack did say the nv30 was fastest when running the nv30 codepath which uses nvidia opengl extensions. This also makes the nv30 run in fp16. This is fine in opengl but for DX this is BELOW the dx9 standard. This cannot be done in 3dmark03 as this would make it NOT a DX9 test. Yet, you STILL blame 3dmark for this.

Quote:
to me, 3DMark never represents true game performance, dx9 is not an exception too.

3dmark is NOT the only benchmark to show the nv30's weaknesses with dx9. Look at any of the hardware sites benchmarks of the nv30 using dx9 shaders with either Rightmark or Shadermark.

Here I'll help you:




Click on this one to view rightmark pixel shader 2 benches as it won't allow me to show the image here:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/gffx/5900u.html#p9

Both of those programs show the nv30 running at less than half the performance of both the r300/r350 based cards in dx9 shaders. Some of those benches it is running at 1/4th the speed. They actually show Nvidia in a WORSE light than 3dmark03 does. Are these 2 other benchmark programs conspiring against Nvidia also?


Behemoth, wake up and smell the roses man, as rotten as they may smell. The nv30 sucks at dx9 shaders. Notice I didn't say opengl which is what Doom 3 is. I'm talking about DX9. Every single dx9 benchmark has shown that. There are only 2 other dx9 benchmarks besides 3dmark03 that exist right now, and they actually show the Nv30 in a worse light than nv30. Yet you think 3dmark03 is cheating Nvidia? If anything I'd say they are helping them by not including more dx9 shaders in the dx9 benchmark.
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