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View Poll Results: Are they cheating again?
Yes 132 67.01%
No 53 26.90%
I don't have a clue by four. 12 6.09%
Voters: 197. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-15-03, 04:50 AM   #85
ChrisRay
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In regards to this cheating. I'm gonna refrain from commenting. I didn't believe Nvidia when they said their anistropic filtering was a driver issue.

And sure enough they fixed it on the Nv30 series. So it's definately possible that it is a driver issue.



I cannot say for sure and I won't at this point because it'll be purely speculative at this point.



That being said, I wish Nvidia would just stick to their guns about 3dmark. If they just ignore the benchmark completely and focus their efforts completely on games. Even if the card performs badly in it. People will still see the Nvidia cards kicking in games.

Which will actually destroy futuremark's credibility, Rather than Nvidia keeping on and destroying their own credibility at this point.
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Old 05-15-03, 05:07 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by panzaman
..when will we stop to give nvidia new chances???...
until they stop making competitive videocards I guess
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Old 05-15-03, 05:08 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ratchet
Who said they only hacked the 44's? Maybe this "enhancement" was around for awhile, and it's only just now being discovered?
Thank you. I'm distraught that it took so long for someone to point this out.

For all you trusting people HOW do you know the 43.51's don't have the SAME hack? ExtremeTech didn't test the 43.51's AFAIK. Nor did them comment on them, AFAIK. Indeed, Dave's comments a few days ago about 43.51 vs 43.45 having more errors imply that there is something going on with 43.51.

Maybe they "optimized" the same way in both 44.03 and 43.51? Or maybe they lowered precision in 43.51, but restored full precision in 44.03 and used this hack to regain speed?

Until someone checks 43.51 and verifies whether or not that driver is just as guilty as 44.03, we cannot know.
 
Old 05-15-03, 05:09 AM   #88
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Which will actually destroy futuremark's credibility, Rather than Nvidia keeping on and destroying their own credibility at this point.
Good point, nvidia should leave 3DMark alone and just arrange more Doom3 shows, even HL2 shows perhaps .
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Old 05-15-03, 05:10 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisRay I cannot say for sure and I won't at this point because it'll be purely speculative at this point.[/b]
Let me quote few gentlemen (Althornin and antlers4) from Beyond3D forums:

Quote:
Quote:
its a mighty big coincidence, eh, that the driver bug just happens to not screw up really while the camera remains "on track", but the minute you leave it, it looks like you are playing doom2 with "noclip" and are running around outside the level.

Too big of a coincidence to really swallow, imo.
Exactly. The clipping is tied to the camera path--it can't be an accident. The only respect in which it is a bug is that they don't turn it off when the camera leaves the expected path. As OpenGL guy said, I'm sure they will fix that one shortly.
As to "destroying Futuremarks credibility".... Why do people whine about 3DMark and not about CodeCreatures for example? Is it because NV doesn't like 3DMark? Because NV doesn't like certain benchmark, it automatically sucks?
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Old 05-15-03, 05:15 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by bkswaney
I also score about the same with the other drivers.
I think this is a big deal being made out of nothing.
I could be wrong but in my findings I think the score will be within 5% of each other.
ET is just trying to start $h!t.
Could you please test 3dmark03 with the 43.00 driver and let us know what you score?

thanks
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Old 05-15-03, 05:18 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nemesis77
Let me quote few gentlemen (Althornin and antlers4) from Beyond3D forums:



Exactly. The clipping is tied to the camera path--it can't be an accident. The only respect in which it is a bug is that they don't turn it off when the camera leaves the expected path. As OpenGL guy said, I'm sure they will fix that one shortly.


As to "destroying Futuremarks credibility".... Why do people whine about 3DMark and not about CodeCreatures for example? Is it because NV doesn't like 3DMark? Because NV doesn't like certain benchmark, it automatically sucks?
[/quote]


Who said I liked code creatures? We'll see. I've seen Nvidia dig themselves out of the AF issues.

I hate synthetic benchmarks period. 3dmark just happens to have far more credibility than it deserves in the benchmark world and people place way to much value on it.

Therefore I'd like to see that credibility continually wiped clean
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Old 05-15-03, 05:32 AM   #92
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Originally posted by ChrisRay
I've seen Nvidia dig themselves out of the AF issues.[/b]
Did they actually fix the gf4 D3D AF + multitexture bug?

Last I remember was that you could "fix" some of it yourself with tweaker programs.

And even if performance improved, the hardware issue was still there, they just found work arounds.

AFAIK they never fixed it. Look at these Tom's benchmarks from Jan 2003 of UT2003, then look at the 8x AF benchmarks for UT2003. The gf4 STILL has a higher performance hit for enabling AF in D3D than the gf3. Albeit that the newest drivers weren't used, but I haven't heard of the problem being fixed recently.

And again in March, for the gfFX5200/5600 review, the performance hit of AF does not seem to have improved.

Yeah, AF in OGL has improved for the gf4, but not D3D, unless something happened in the last 2 months.
 

Old 05-15-03, 05:46 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by StealthHawk
Did they actually fix the gf4 D3D AF + multitexture bug?

Last I remember was that you could "fix" some of it yourself with tweaker programs.

"and so on"
I think he's referring to the HORRIBLE performance of trilinear filtering on the FX series. As it turned out it was just a bug.
That wasn't really directly related to aniso itself, it was rather bugs in the "Application" mode of the drivers.
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Old 05-15-03, 05:52 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnteP
until they stop making competitive videocards I guess
A case could be made that this has already happened, at least for some segments of the market. The only nVidia cards which are competitive (when compared to similarly priced ati cards) are the 4ti-4200 (which is an excellent deal atm) and the fx 5900Ultra (which barely matches it's competitor, even with lower image quality and suspect drivers). Maybe the other fx cards will become competitive but we need to be sure we can trust their drivers first...

Hmmmm, so much for nVidia being the "gold standard" of drivers.
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Old 05-15-03, 05:52 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisRay Who said I liked code creatures? We'll see.
Funny, I don't see anyone whining about it though... I bet that if NV said "we don't think you should use CC because....", it would take about 5 minutes for these forums (and others) to be filled by NV-fans who tell everyone why CC sucks.

"When NV says "jump", only thing we will ask is "how high?""

Quote:
I hate synthetic benchmarks period. 3dmark just happens to have far more credibility than it deserves in the benchmark world and people place way to much value on it.
Again, people were OK with 3DMark as long as it was OK with NV. The second NV complained about it, people started to complain as well.

And how come 3DMark doesn't have any credibility? There are plenty of people using it to benchmark their system, including professional reviewers. Or did it lose it credibility because NV doesn't like it?
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Old 05-15-03, 06:02 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nemesis77
Again, people were OK with 3DMark as long as it was OK with NV. The second NV complained about it, people started to complain as well.
I guess part of the problem is that people don't really understand what nVidias complaints were about more in detail.

Personally I don't think any of their complaints are really valid. 3DMark03 is there for comparetive benchmarks.
As such weaknesses in the code matters less, in fact I'd say it doesn't matter at all simply because all products have to run that same code.
Having such weaknesses in a game would be darn stupid though, of course.

nVidia ruins the whole purpose of the test when they cheat like this. They're now up to three cheats in one single benchmark:

1. precision in the older drivers (dull sky etc.)
2. clip planes in the newer drivers
3. code bypassing in GT2 (perhaps in other as well) in all the drivers (this one nVidia simply revealed themselves som time ago)

If their goal was to make 3Dmark03 an invalid benchmark for cross platform benchmarking then I guess they've done what they set out to do.

no 1 on that list might be a bug, but no 2 and 3 are not.
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