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Old 08-07-02, 11:45 PM   #1
StealthHawk
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Default A Win? Or A Draw?

ok, what do you guys think about this, assuming it is correct
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As we have noted several times already, Microsoft used RADEON 9700 as a target platform for the DirectX 9. However, when they have seen what we have seen, the specifications and capabilities of the NV30, they were impressed not less than we were. After that, the software giant decided to implement som additional features in the DirectX 9 so that developers were able to use them without being limited to their target platform.

DirectX 9 will also support branching in static and dynamic forms, long pixel and vertex shaders "beyond RADEON 9700 DirectX 9", 128-bit color precision and maybe also loops and calls & returns. As a result, when the NV30 will be available, developers will have an API that is able to utilise its features and capabilities. Keeping in mind that NV30 and DirectX 9 schedules are now aligned according to NVidia, we can expect them to appear in the very close timeframe.
will this be just like DX 8.1 and its unused 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 Pixel Shaders?
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Old 08-08-02, 01:20 AM   #2
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Default Re: A Win? Or A Draw?

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Originally posted by StealthHawk
will this be just like DX 8.1 and its unused 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 Pixel Shaders?
Only time will tell...but they are mainly unused because DX is developing faster than the game developers can...I mean can you name a game that requires and actually USES DX8 goodies (well)?
I can probably count them on one hand...
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Old 08-08-02, 01:53 AM   #3
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Originally posted by Matthyahuw
Only time will tell...but they are mainly unused because DX is developing faster than the game developers can...I mean can you name a game that requires and actually USES DX8 goodies (well)?
I can probably count them on one hand...
exactly. cg is supposed to alleviate that, but many people seem to think it won't be used at all. so no hope there. and of course i doubt we'll be seeing any DX9 games for quite some time as a whole.
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Old 08-08-02, 02:00 AM   #4
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I really hope to see Cg take off, it would do amazing things for the difficulty of using advanced DX 8+ effects.
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Old 08-08-02, 06:57 AM   #5
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This sounds like Deja Vu for ATI all over again. They went through this with the original Radeon as well. It was a DX8 card..until Microsoft changed the specs again...
Thats gotta burn up ATI.
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Old 08-08-02, 07:00 AM   #6
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Does this now mean that the Radeon 9700 is no longer full DX9 card?
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Old 08-08-02, 07:06 AM   #7
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Not sure. It sounds like this may be a DX9.1 kind of situation, where 9700 would be DX9...but not support some of the extra features who knows. Have to watch this develop.
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Old 08-08-02, 07:06 AM   #8
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Quote:
cg is supposed to alleviate that

No No No No No!!!!!!!


People for the 1000th time the reason we dont have these effects now is NOT because they are too hard to code for. Cg will make life easier for a software developer as it will make the Software developers job much eaiser.

CG CAN NOT MAKE DX8 functions run on DX7 hardware!!!!!!Thats why we have not seen these effects yet. Thats why for a large part the Beyond DX9 stuff of the NV30 will not get use. Thats why harldy any of the DX8.1 effects are used.


And yes I feel that MS once again will break up DX9 ala DX8 and DX8.1 What will be interesting is to see all of the fan boys switch sided. ATI fan boys will say that its not need or will not be used even though a few months ago they were aurging the oppsite. NV fans will say that it will be better than the R300 for this alone even though they were aurging a few months ago that the beyond DX8 stuff the 8500 did not mean a thing.... Let me grab a bowl of popcorn cuz this will be fun to watch
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Old 08-08-02, 07:45 AM   #9
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come on, they can't be that easy. if they were that easy to implement, and didn't take much time/effort, i'm sure we would see more games making use of at least SOME Pixel Shader effects. i mean, WC3 could have benefitted nicely from PS water at the very least.
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Old 08-08-02, 09:33 AM   #10
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Default Re: A Win? Or A Draw?

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Originally posted by StealthHawk
ok, what do you guys think about this, assuming it is correct

will this be just like DX 8.1 and its unused 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 Pixel Shaders?
I think that's exactly what it will be like. ATI has alread made a public statement that the R350 would be DX9.1 compliant. This, and the NV30's "Beyone DX9" hype, would lead me to conclude that the 9700 is fully DX9 compliant, the NV30 is (at least partially) DX9.1 compliant, and the R350 will be DX9.1 compliant.

M$ will simply release an updated DX9 sometime late Q2 or Q3 of next year as DX9.1.

I'm glad NVIDIA is pushing the specs and features of its card. I always thought it was a good thing for ATI to do the same, simply because it means the competition is under pressure to advance. If the two companies get into a "gentleman's agreement" that features won't be advanced so rapidly, then we as consumers lose.

Unfortunately, like nearly every leading graphics card of a DX generation, most of the new features and capabilities of the card will go unused. In other words, not only will the NV30's "Beyond DX9" features be completely untapped for a couple of years to come, but all of the 9700's "DX9" features as well. At least this pushing of features brings us more capable (and faster) hardware.
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Old 08-08-02, 09:56 AM   #11
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Who uses DirectX anyway? OpenGL is much better IMHO.

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Old 08-08-02, 10:07 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbirney



No No No No No!!!!!!!


People for the 1000th time the reason we dont have these effects now is NOT because they are too hard to code for. Cg will make life easier for a software developer as it will make the Software developers job much eaiser.

CG CAN NOT MAKE DX8 functions run on DX7 hardware!!!!!!Thats why we have not seen these effects yet. Thats why for a large part the Beyond DX9 stuff of the NV30 will not get use. Thats why harldy any of the DX8.1 effects are used.


And yes I feel that MS once again will break up DX9 ala DX8 and DX8.1 What will be interesting is to see all of the fan boys switch sided. ATI fan boys will say that its not need or will not be used even though a few months ago they were aurging the oppsite. NV fans will say that it will be better than the R300 for this alone even though they were aurging a few months ago that the beyond DX8 stuff the 8500 did not mean a thing.... Let me grab a bowl of popcorn cuz this will be fun to watch
Agreed.

There's 2 things about all these new features with each generations, the first is jb's point about the hardware currently out, and that's simply that developers want their games to sell to as many people as possible, so they code for the lowest common denominator. Only in special cases do we see otherwise (usually special versions of games released WITH the hardware).

The second is simply my observation that while, for example, my GF3 supports pixel and vertex shaders, any program that I've tried that truly takes advantage of them in any meaningful way usually shows very low performance. The first generation of hardware with the new features serves to get the feature out, but usually doesn't run very well with it in use. Later versions start to optimize and tweak the hardware, and performance can be decent, but I doubt if I was a developer I'd support full DX9 functionality in my games even IF everyone owned 9700's and nV30's. I'd instead wait until most people were using the R350 / nV35, as a minimum, when I expect that those features will actually be usable with decent performance.

Just my $.02.
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