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Old 05-18-03, 07:03 PM   #109
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Quote:
the clipping is a DELIBERATE method of not doing the full load of work... reduced load == higher scores == cheating
by your definition of cheat ,any deliverate method like Hidden surface REmoval /Texture compression / that reduce the work load is cheating too then
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Old 05-18-03, 07:09 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nv40
by your definition of cheat ,any deliverate method like Hidden surface REmoval /Texture compression / that reduce the work load is cheating too then
no.. that would be your definition...

my definition calls for the workload of the benchmark to be handled as intended...

compression and other features HANDLE the workload and reduce it... note that they are still doing the work...
using the planes... the work is being ELIMINATED...

blatant and deliberate reduction of workload such as this is what I call cheating...
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Old 05-18-03, 07:13 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by jjjayb
You are one hundred percent correct. If you can increase the speeds by not rendering what is not necessary that is a good thing. That is what occlusion culling is all about. This is done on the fly by videocards every day.

BUT, and this is a very big BUT, you need to be able to do that on the fly. If your drivers can tell what does not need to be shown by what the program tells it, that is great. If you have to manually go in and tell the drivers "in this specific benchmark the camera moves here, then here, then here, then stops, don't render anything else". That is cheating.

Once again because some of you just don't seem to get it yet. By preprogramming the drivers to ingore parts of the test because you have studied the test beforehand and tell the drivers exactly where the camera is going to go in a specific benchmark that is CHEATING. There is no other way to put it. It is NOT an optimization.

If I go in and take a test with the answers written on my hand that is considered cheating. This amounts to the same thing.

ANd what tells you that ATI is not doing the same thing?
they already know the answers of what its going to happen ,maybe not using the camera rail path ,but using another technique?

what you dont realialize is that KNOWING what is going to be rendering
ahead of time , is part of the strategy of NVidia and ATI for optimizations in
that benchamark and in all games .

Last edited by Nv40; 05-18-03 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 05-18-03, 07:23 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nv40
ANd what tells you that ATI is not doing the same thing?
they already know the answers of what its going to happen ,maybe not using the camera rail path ,but using another technique?

what you dont realialize is that KNOWING what is going to be rendering
ahead of time , is part of the strategy of NVidia and ATI for optimizations in
that benchamark and in all games .
comparisons between ati rendered images and the default dx9 spec EXPECTED images show them to be basically the same thing... hence precision is to dx9 spec... off rail shows ati is rendering scenes as expected...

is there something else they may be doing you reckon ? I would love to hear this... since the normal method of defence here on your part implies that ati is doing something shady and so is futuremark and nvidia is the poor innocent victim which was FORCED to cheat in order to compete in this ruthless benchmark that was devised by the devil (futuremark) ... no matter than the devils little brother (ati of course) appears to be performing AS EXPECTED and meeting the specs set forth in the dx9 API...

please... do keep going... I am very interested to see where your speculation leads since we know a) ati is doing things correctly per tests conducted... b) nvidia is NOT doing things correctly per tests conducted...

I eagerly await your intuitive and technically correct response which vindicates nvidia and shows them infact to be the victims of a terrible industry wide conspiracy by which TSMC and samsung conspired with ati and futuremark and certain implanted members of nvidia's engineering team to produce products that initially did not live up to the hype and when they were 'fixed' for the most part it was then decided that the fixes were not enough... their benchmarks needed to be sabotaged...

/me pats himself on the back for getting creative here
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Old 05-18-03, 07:26 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nv40
ANd what tells you that ATI is not doing the same thing?
they already know the answers of what its going to happen ,maybe not using the camera rail path ,but using another technique?
We don't know that ATI is not cheating. In 3dmark 2003 when you go "off rail" the ATI card displays correctly.

WE DO know that nvidia is cheating because in the same situation the clip planes are visible and the image is NOT displayed correctly.

Quote:
Originally posted by Nv40
what you dont realialize is that KNOWING what is going to be rendering
ahead of time , is part of the strategy of NVidia and ATI for optimizations in
that benchamark and in all games .
In a fixed rail demo it is possible to know what will be rendered next, that is exactly how Nvidia is cheating. In a fluid game situation it would be impossible to know what will need to be rendered next so there is no way to do this.
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Old 05-18-03, 07:38 PM   #114
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this tread go in circles again and again...
re-read my previous post.. you can only cheat if you agree with
the rules of the contest ,that your cards be used in that benchamrk.
ATI agreed that their cards be benchmarked in GAMES like QUAKE3.
If they agreed with the rules are latter break them they are cheating.

BUT SINCE NVIDIA HAVE ALREADY STATED THAT 3dMARK2003 DOES NOT REPRESNT THE REAL PERFORMANCE OF THEIR CARDS ,THEY WARNS WEBSITES TO NOT USE THAT BENCHMARK ,TO NOT TRUST IN THE SCORES ..

WHo is MISleading the public then?

Last edited by Nv40; 05-18-03 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 05-18-03, 07:48 PM   #115
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nvidia is still the one misleading people...

if they object to 3dmarks, then they would pull down all scores and graphs...but they dont, they even display 3dmark scores themselves when showcasing the card...

the hypocrisy continues...
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Old 05-18-03, 07:50 PM   #116
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I think Nvidia should just lock frame rates in 3dmark too a specific point. Maybe 30 FPS, That way people could see 3dmark as what it is, a tech demo. And just screw the 3dmarks all together
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Old 05-18-03, 07:50 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nv40
WHo is MISleading the public then?
You are.
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Old 05-18-03, 07:56 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nv40
this tread go in circles again and again...
re-read my previous post.. you can only cheat if you agree with
the rules of the contest
Please tell me this isn't going to be your new argument?
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Old 05-18-03, 07:58 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nv40
this tread go in circles again and again...
re-read my previous post.. you can only cheat if you agree with
the rules of the contest ,that your cards be used in that benchamrk.
ATI agreed that their cards be benchmarked in GAMES like QUAKE3.
If they agreed with the rules are latter break them they are cheating.

BUT SINCE NVIDIA HAVE ALREADY STATED THAT 3dMARK2003 DOES NOT REPRESNT THE REAL PERFORMANCE OF THEIR CARDS ,THEY WARNS WEBSITES TO NOT USE THAT BENCHMARK ,TO NOT TRUST IN THE SCORES ..

WHo is MISleading the public then?
nvidia...

if ati does not do well in a benchmark and then cries foul to it @ every opportunity given and then purposely buggers drivers to give false results in a benchmark... you will react in the same way ?

I think not...

remember the whole quake/quack incident and what ati went through and what they have emerged as...

if ati is held to such high standards.. why then is nvidia held to such low standards ? is that all they are capable of ?

I think not.. nvidia makes fine products and they do a good job marketing even if I dont agree with the ethics thereof...

BUT there is no denying that what they are doing here is completely inaccurate...

btw it appears you condone the sabotaging of a benchmark that many sites and companies DO use... ?

if nvidia is not only cheating but looking to purposely sabotage this benchmark... thats another story... and apparently you would love that

however.. @ this point in time.. lets just stick to the cheating shall we...

@ this time... through all the posts I have read from you... and jimmy... and behemoth... I have yet to see anything that shows that

a) ati is cheating or coercing with futuremark on 3dmark03
b) futuremark is purposely seeking to reduce nvidia's scores
c) nvidia is in fact not cheating
d) the evidence produced and provided is indeed not showing any cheating going on

I will ask again... instead of bashing futuremark and ati... explain if possible... in INTELLIGIBLE english what exactly you think is going on and WHY nvidia is being shown with the 44.03 driver set to be getting irregularities that appear to be DELIBERATE...

thats all I want to know...
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Old 05-18-03, 08:13 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by Clockwork
Please tell me this isn't going to be your new argument?

DOnt miss cuote me..

You can only cheat if you agree with the rules of a contest_and later you
break them ... Since Nvidia already told they dont agreed with the rules
of 3dmark for X ,Y,Z reasons , and WARNS WEBS SITES to not use the bechmark ,because it does-not represent the real performance of Nvidia cards. WHo is misleading here the public? is that clear?

if i tell you DONT DO THIS!!! .. but you do it , then is your problem.

and there is already many post by me.. about why i think 3dmark
is not doing what people say it does. just enter the BIG tread of 3dmark2003 and re-read all my posts again ,im tired of repetitions

Last edited by Nv40; 05-18-03 at 08:19 PM.
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