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Old 05-18-03, 09:24 PM   #133
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I think my IQ's dropped a few points after reading this thread.
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Old 05-18-03, 09:34 PM   #134
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Talking Uhm...where'd the dragon go in 3dm2k1se? FX dets "optimization" #2

I know a lot of you don't want to hear me talking about problems with the new FX drivers, but warp2search has got a story up about how the dragon seems to be missing from one of the benchies in 3dm2k1se.

On the brightside, the dragonrider's butt is pretty sweeet....

Lemme guess..."Where does it say in 3dm2k1se that you have to render the dragon? It's just another optimization! Besides, ATi cheated at quake/quack..."
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Old 05-18-03, 09:39 PM   #135
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Ok, what happens when the driver "bug" is literally invisible?
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Old 05-18-03, 09:45 PM   #136
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Oh that?
That is another OPtimization.
SEe, the dragon wants to be invisible, and nVidia is helping him. Thus, BEcause they are doing what the benchmark really wants, it is not cheating.
Also, nVidia never signed a COntract with FUtureMArk stating that they would not optimize DRivers for the benchmark by removing visibile or non visible parts of it, so they ARent cheating cause they never agreed to GRound RUles of THe GAme.

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Old 05-18-03, 09:53 PM   #137
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Yeah, because you know nVidia is stupid enough to think people aren't going to notice a missing dragon

It's a bug, a freaking bug! Until someone can point out where in nVidia's drivers it specifically says something to the tune of, "IF scene=dragon test, THEN dragon rendering=off" (a specific setting like what ATI did with the Quack incident), then it's a damned bug.

/me goes back to watching Conspiracy Theory
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Old 05-18-03, 10:15 PM   #138
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I find it hard to believe nvidia doesn't have access to "off the rail" 3dmark, officially or otherwise, and yet review websites do.

Nv40 you're so full of BS it's not even funny. extending your arguments, do you believe you can only be a criminal if you agree with the laws?
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Old 05-18-03, 10:48 PM   #139
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You know, Dig, I posted this on the front page:
Quote:
Now, if you can tell me with a straight face that it's a cheat, not a bug... I might have to give you a cookie. Or a slap in the head.
I stick by my word.
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Old 05-18-03, 10:54 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Ok, what happens when the driver "bug" is literally invisible?
consider this... is it not easier to attack the villagers with a dragon that happens to turn invisible than one that is visible ?

I mean with additional AA and AF turned on you have the screen rendered CORRECTLY... since this benchmark incorporates a game engine... you get to see the dragon the way it was meant to be rendered... ie... invisibly...

bug ? cheat ? pwah !

perish the thought... this is a classic example of a driver set working like it is SUPPOSED to... none of the other driver sets or video cards were capable of such advanced rendering techniques whereby a barely clothed woman could be shown humping air while fire was breathed out of her loins... the superior rendering capabilities of the FX engine allow this 'feature' to be activated...

unfortunately ATi video cards are incapable of such advanced rendering since they have inferior AA and AF techniques and because even though they have more access to code since ATi spends its evenings buggering futuremark rotten.. it has not the capacity to render the dragon invisible like it was meant to

a truly shameful day for ati owners... the inferiority of their hardware has been shown up

congratulations all fx 5600 and 5200 users...

perhaps some day I will be able to play an actual version of a game that comes out of this game demo in 3dmark2001SE and actually use my super duper special powers to turn my dragon invisible as well... but till then I will have to suffer in the agony that my built by ATi radeon 9700pro is incapable of 'features' that are available and work so well in the fx 5200 and 5600 series cards

oh woe is the day ati owners were faced with the gilt edged sword that is the Det FX == Det 44.03...

/me walks off into woods to shoot self in head... the stress of dealing with this startling capability is too much for me...
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Old 05-18-03, 10:58 PM   #141
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heres my response...

couldn't be bothered to type it again

bear with me...

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...649#post124649
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Old 05-18-03, 11:41 PM   #142
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Default Re: My thoughts on "Optimization"

Quote:
Originally posted by jimmyjames123
[b]I have been reading about this 3dmark03 "Rendering Issue".

For one, I think the journalism at Extremetech and Beyond3d was a bit odd. Never do they mention the following relevant points:

1) Image quality was NOT compromised with the new FX 44.03 driver. In fact, most people have noted improvements in Image Quality, even in 3dmark03.
Wrong. There are visible side effects present from this "optimizing."

Discussion

They also lowered the IQ of Quality AF.

Discussion

Quote:
2) All images in 3dmark03 that we actually SEE are rendered correctly.
As noted above, there are visible side effects.

This totally discounts the ethical reasons of why not rendering everything in a benchmark is cheating.

Quote:
Now, ask yourself this question:

If we can get smoother and faster performance, without any loss of image quality, isn't that a good thing?
Yes, it is.

Quote:
If I had an FX NVIDIA card, I would be happy that NVIDIA could "optimize" for 3dmark03 without any loss of image quality and without affecting any images that we actually see on screen
But you apparently don't, and it doesn't.

Quote:
It is no secret that both NVIDIA and ATI "optimize" their drivers for a benchmark like 3dmark03. If they can do it without compromising image quality, all the better (IMO).
Again, your premise is that there are no detriments to IQ from the optimizing. Which there is. Your argument is therefore worthless, since its basis is false.

Quote:
Some other points that are worth noting:

1) NVIDIA does not have authorized access to the developer's build of 3dmark, while ATI (and Extremetech, Beyond3d, etc) does, where they can roam around anywhere even off-center of the actual image displayed.
So what are you saying, that they wouldn't have included these optimizations if they knew that you could go off the rail? If that doesn't mean it isn't a deceptive attempt at a cheat, I don't know what is. Does that fact that some people can go off the rail make it any more or less bad?

Quote:
3) [H]OCP talked with ATI privately about the quake/quack driver cheat issue for more than a month before writing their article. ATI repeatedly denied cheating, and [H]OCP released their article after they proved them wrong (showing that image quality was compromised on Quake 3 while enhancing performance).
That's great, too bad Kyle didn't say that in this article. The ExtremeTech article mentions that they talked to nvidia from the get go. And B3D did too. nvidia hasn't replied to B3D yet.

Hmm, if it's not a cheat why is it taking them so long to come up with an answer, or an official reply?

Quote:
4) The NVIDIA FX Detonator driver increased both performance and IQ noticeably for a variety of benchmarks and games on the FX graphics cards, not simply 3dmark03.
The next question is of course, how do you know they aren't cheating in some other timedemos or benchmarks? And how do you know that the speed increaes found in benchmarks translate to better gameplay performance?

Serious Sam? 3dmark2001? Hmm.

Quote:
5) The Doom3 benchmark's used in the latest tests were chosen by ID and were not seen by NVIDIA in advance.
Did anyone ever say they were cheating in Doom3?

Quote:
All in all, it boils down to what one considers an "optimization" vs. a "cheat". If a graphics card company can make performance smoother and faster without compromising image quality and without affecting what we actually see, then I would say this is a good thing (especially considering that NVIDIA and ATI both optimize for benchmarks in the first place).
What they are doing does not help games. It only works in fixed benchmarks where the camera angle doesn't change. Do you not understand this? This "optimization" will not help in real games. This is another reason why it shouldn't be called anything but cheating.
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Old 05-19-03, 12:33 AM   #143
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StealthHawk ,are you reading this tread ?

because you are saying things that have been answered ,so Many pages
ago ,since the begining.. so please go back again ,and reread everything..

Nvidia can claim whatever they want ,and they will be right..
SINCE THEY DONT AGREE WITH THE RULES OF THE COMPETITION ,
THEY DONT HAVE TO PLAY BY ITS RULES. and SINCE THEY ALREADY WARNS EVERYONE THAT THE PERFORMANCE IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF NVIDIA CARDS .

So THey can Optimize the way they want.

Nvidia says DONT DO IT , IT IS NOT REAL , but people do it anyway ,
them later the same people blame them ....

what can they do ? an ADvertisment in MTV ? Maybe CNN ?
"the performance is not representative of our cards..
use it at your risk ,for entertaiment purposes."

it is very clear to see that People are not interested anymore if the
contest is valid or not ,they only want to see the Scores...
no matter what

The Performance is not accurate ,because both cards do things in diferent
ways , REnders things in diferent ways ,with cheats or wihtout cheats ,with optimizations or without it. with fixed drivers or wihout it.

it is pointless so many repetition... seem you can only see things
in two ways.. BLACK or WHITE.. if that is not Black then it should be
WHite ... .. there are more colors , you know .

Last edited by Nv40; 05-19-03 at 01:07 AM.
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Old 05-19-03, 12:33 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sazar
consider this... is it not easier to attack the villagers with a dragon that happens to turn invisible than one that is visible ?

I mean with additional AA and AF turned on you have the screen rendered CORRECTLY... since this benchmark incorporates a game engine... you get to see the dragon the way it was meant to be rendered... ie... invisibly...

bug ? cheat ? pwah !

perish the thought... this is a classic example of a driver set working like it is SUPPOSED to... none of the other driver sets or video cards were capable of such advanced rendering techniques whereby a barely clothed woman could be shown humping air while fire was breathed out of her loins... the superior rendering capabilities of the FX engine allow this 'feature' to be activated...

unfortunately ATi video cards are incapable of such advanced rendering since they have inferior AA and AF techniques and because even though they have more access to code since ATi spends its evenings buggering futuremark rotten.. it has not the capacity to render the dragon invisible like it was meant to

a truly shameful day for ati owners... the inferiority of their hardware has been shown up

congratulations all fx 5600 and 5200 users...

perhaps some day I will be able to play an actual version of a game that comes out of this game demo in 3dmark2001SE and actually use my super duper special powers to turn my dragon invisible as well... but till then I will have to suffer in the agony that my built by ATi radeon 9700pro is incapable of 'features' that are available and work so well in the fx 5200 and 5600 series cards

oh woe is the day ati owners were faced with the gilt edged sword that is the Det FX == Det 44.03...

/me walks off into woods to shoot self in head... the stress of dealing with this startling capability is too much for me...
LOL, now thats funny.

But if anyone actually thinks that's a "cheat" they are truly retarded.

However, this is a wild guess but it might be a side effect of other cheats...
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