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Old 05-19-03, 10:08 AM   #181
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This discussion is so Ridiculous...

They changed the paramaters of what the Benchmnark is Trying to accomplish.

Forget everything else in this entire thread. There is no getting around that one point. The bottm line is that an *optimization* would find a way to do the *SAME* ammount of work more efficiently. Which is clearly not what is happening here. We are dealing with a FINITE, MEASURED test. Not a variable game experience. This is no different than Taking a Colledge exam and finding a way to make the grading computer let you get away with skipping 20 Questions out of 100 and still getting an *A*.

There is simply no logical, or *Truthful* argument that can be made here, that this is a *Bug* or something innoccent. IT is flat out cheating.
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Old 05-19-03, 10:09 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sazar
that is a point that we have been presenting for the longest time

unfortunately it has conveniently not been addressed in any detail by those that choose to disregard this point...
damn, i missed another important point
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Old 05-19-03, 10:11 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally posted by Behemoth
anything outside of clipping volume gets clipped, you cant have corruption of nothing.
Wrong. You obviously don't understand how clip-planes and 3D hardware works.

If something gets "clipped", that means it doesn't need to get updated with new information or anything. Depending on the engine and the hardware, this leads to all sorts of corruption.

The most COMMON is what is seen with the B3D issue. You get this "repeating pattern". You get a "repeat" of the last "visible" pixels that were inside the clip plane. Why? Because the video card doesn't bother to update the display, because that's just wasted work. Why should you update or "blank" out that which is not seen?

In any case, you have not answered my original question, and I'd like to have it.

If a driver replaces actual rendering with a pre-recorded AVI movie playback, do you consider THAT cheating? And how does that reconcile with the fact that it "looks the same, therefore it's OK?"
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Old 05-19-03, 10:13 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally posted by Behemoth
ok i really missed his point. let me just keep the point i raised
if you think about it... your point loses meaning when comparing it with the benchmark in question...

it doesn't hold up... and it has been explained in plenty of detail throughout this thread...

using the planes ELIMINATES work the video cards SHOULD do in order to garner a score... hence it is a cheat...

the fact that you are looking and seeing something that APPEARS to be correct is irrelevant.. the fact that you have such planes in other games and what not is irrelevant because 3dmark03 does NOT have the option to introduce such planes... it is NOT a part of the program

it is specifically introduced to provide scores that are otherwise unattainable @ this time by the product in question...

the presence of the planes is outside of program parameters...

normally if there is software that changes the way other software works in order to alter it from its intended form... I tend to think of that as something along the lines of a virus
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Old 05-19-03, 10:16 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally posted by Behemoth
damn, i missed another important point
lookie lookie we have a comedian in the house...

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Old 05-19-03, 10:17 AM   #186
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joe DeFuria
Wrong. You obviously don't understand how clip-planes and 3D hardware works.

If something gets "clipped", that means it doesn't need to get updated with new information or anything. Depending on the engine and the hardware, this leads to all sorts of corruption.

The most COMMON is what is seen with the B3D issue. You get this "repeating pattern". You get a "repeat" of the last "visible" pixels that were inside the clip plane. Why? Because the video card doesn't bother to update the display, because that's just wasted work. Why should you update or "blank" out that which is not seen?

In any case, you have not answered my original question, and I'd like to have it.

If a driver replaces actual rendering with a pre-recorded AVI movie playback, do you consider THAT cheating? And how does that reconcile with the fact that it "looks the same, therefore it's OK?"
you are wrong, even if the hardware choose not to clear outside area, you should at least see a trapezoid volume that keeps updating its content but the ET screenshots messed up totally.
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Old 05-19-03, 10:19 AM   #187
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sazar
if you think about it... your point loses meaning when comparing it with the benchmark in question...

it doesn't hold up... and it has been explained in plenty of detail throughout this thread...

using the planes ELIMINATES work the video cards SHOULD do in order to garner a score... hence it is a cheat...

the fact that you are looking and seeing something that APPEARS to be correct is irrelevant.. the fact that you have such planes in other games and what not is irrelevant because 3dmark03 does NOT have the option to introduce such planes... it is NOT a part of the program

it is specifically introduced to provide scores that are otherwise unattainable @ this time by the product in question...

the presence of the planes is outside of program parameters...

normally if there is software that changes the way other software works in order to alter it from its intended form... I tend to think of that as something along the lines of a virus
i just want to disprove the manul clipping plane theory with that point, not using it to prove its not a cheat hehe
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Old 05-19-03, 10:20 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
This discussion is so Ridiculous...

They changed the paramaters of what the Benchmnark is Trying to accomplish.

Forget everything else in this entire thread. There is no getting around that one point. The bottm line is that an *optimization* would find a way to do the *SAME* ammount of work more efficiently. Which is clearly not what is happening here. We are dealing with a FINITE, MEASURED test. Not a variable game experience. This is no different than Taking a Colledge exam and finding a way to make the grading computer let you get away with skipping 20 Questions out of 100 and still getting an *A*.

There is simply no logical, or *Truthful* argument that can be made here, that this is a *Bug* or something innoccent. IT is flat out cheating.
WORD!!!!

I wish all you nVidiots would just either address that single issue or quit wasting our time.
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Old 05-19-03, 10:24 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally posted by Behemoth
you are wrong, even if the hardware choose not to clear outside area, you should at least see a trapezoid volume that keeps updating its content but the ET screenshots messed up totally.
Nope, that's not right. What Joe says is correct.
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Old 05-19-03, 10:25 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally posted by Behemoth
you are wrong, even if the hardware choose not to clear outside area, you should at least see a trapezoid volume that keeps updating its content but the ET screenshots messed up totally.
The actual corruption that you SEE depends highly on the interaction between the software and the drivers, and the hardware. You cannot say what type of corruption would or would not be present.

You are looking at still screenshots from ET. You have no idea what the "frame by frame" corruption looks like.

Quote:
i just want to disprove the manul clipping plane theory with that point, not using it to prove its not a cheat hehe
By your lack of response, I take that as you agree it's a cheat.
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Old 05-19-03, 10:25 AM   #191
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hanners
Nope, that's not right. What Joe says is correct.
I am sure most of us concur or believe along the lines of what joe said

but that may not be enough to change the way some think
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Old 05-19-03, 10:28 AM   #192
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this is how clip planes and 3D software works.
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