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Old 05-21-03, 07:41 AM   #337
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisRay
I am quite curious what you consider legitimate? I mean ATI optimises its drivers for 3dmark quite a bit as well. Cat 3.4 didn't really improve my over all benchmark scores in anything but 3dmark, Which I won't use.
For me, that depends whether the specific application is being 'optimised', or a feature that the benchmark relies on heavily is.

For example, say PixelShader 2.0 performance was increased by 10% across the board. What applications would you see that increase in? Basically none except for 3DMark. In fact, I think this is a lot of the problem with 3DMark - People only tend to look at the final score, and not all the other tests. If you want to see if any particular part of the rendering process has been improved by a driver set, then the individual scores will give you a slightly better idea of where that improvement is coming from.


I think it would be stupid to assume that no IHV has some optimisations that only specifically affect 3DMark, but I somehow doubt any of them are as major as the desparate attempts nVidia seem to be making to keep their scores high.
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Old 05-21-03, 08:04 AM   #338
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hanners
For me, that depends whether the specific application is being 'optimised', or a feature that the benchmark relies on heavily is.

For example, say PixelShader 2.0 performance was increased by 10% across the board. What applications would you see that increase in? Basically none except for 3DMark. In fact, I think this is a lot of the problem with 3DMark - People only tend to look at the final score, and not all the other tests. If you want to see if any particular part of the rendering process has been improved by a driver set, then the individual scores will give you a slightly better idea of where that improvement is coming from.


I think it would be stupid to assume that no IHV has some optimisations that only specifically affect 3DMark, but I somehow doubt any of them are as major as the desparate attempts nVidia seem to be making to keep their scores high.

Well this is a step in the right direction, At least we are getting somewhere into what is apropriate.

And you have hit the nail on the head that there different tests reflect different things.


Now lets freeze frame back and look at past scenerios to where this 10% increase in Pixel Shader performance, Could be compared too.


(Ahh the Det 4.0) The Nature Scene, There are plenty of games that use Pixel Shader 1.1 Nowadays, Did these games actually benefit from these magical drivers?

The Answer is no, The unfortunate case is we have to take a companies word for whether or not These performance numbers are really indicative of whats happening across the board or whats just happening in the only relevent current situations.

And that Being 3dmark.


The Problem is both ATI and Nvidia make pretty bogus claims expecially concerning 3dmarks.

"Improved Radeon 8500's Pixel Shaders by 50%" (Cat 3.1 I believe)

"Improved Geforce FX performance by 30% With Det FX"
(Det FX)

"Improved Pixel Shader Performance by 40% For Geforce 4 cards" Det 4.0)


And the only thing that is showing any change is 3dmark. What does this lead you to believe?

Well can you draw any number of conclusions to these statements. But they mean something totally different than what they are saying.

These so called "Optimisations" For 3dmark really aren't doing anything for games.


Now it leads me to question something.


Were prior to Det 4.0 accurate measure of Pixel Shader performance? Were the original Radeon 8500 results more accurate of its Pixel Shader 1.4 performance?

And were the original drivers for the Geforce FX a more accurate display of its original performance?

If the you answered yes to all three of these questions. Then you can understand my concerns about 3dmark as a synthetic benchmark.

It's not really a generic measure of performance anymore. It's just a highly optimised engine that both ATI and NVidia waiste far too much time on.

This is why its impossible to compare anything with it, Because none of us know exactly what is being done there. We simply do not know at this point
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Old 05-21-03, 08:35 AM   #339
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Unit01 said in the other thread :-

"So Andy just cause you deem 3dmark03 invalid means it's right of nvidia to cheat in it? Gosh what a great attitude. Really shows something"

Where do I say it is ok for nvidia to cheat in it ?

I was commenting on Chris saying that it is not valid for gaming anymore. Who mentioned cheating ? We were talking about optimisations from Ati and nvidia.


Gosh, what a great attitude you have there. Really shows something Unit01.

To quote a phrase.

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Old 05-21-03, 09:31 AM   #340
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Quote:
Originally posted by reever2
Funny coming from a person who just blindly spouts computer jargon to make it seem like you are making a point, even though you have no idea what you are saying
so many blind nv30 haters in this forum
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Old 05-21-03, 09:39 AM   #341
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nv40
well they are right, the NV30 is a failure

the problem is that there are many video cards too..
because the Nv30 is faster in games that...
R9000,R9100,R9200,R9500nonpro,R9500pro,
R9600,R9700, and even the 9800 in a few test.

and than all currenlty available Nvidia video cards .

it even defeat the R350 in raw performance in many situations,
and outscore the latestst 256megs ati CArds easily in Doom3..

yes the Nv30 is a POS..

would you trade Behemoth your card for my geforce4 ?
let me ease the anger from blind nv30 haters by saying:
nooooo way nv40, your geforce4 is worse than a POS
and i dont want to play doom3 any slower than a POS
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Old 05-21-03, 09:48 AM   #342
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Quote:
Originally posted by Behemoth
so many blind nv30 haters in this forum
so many blind nvidia lovers too.
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Old 05-21-03, 09:53 AM   #343
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Quote:
Originally posted by rokzy
so many blind nvidia lovers too.
I don't think anyone here loves nVidia, but a lot of Ati fanboys hate Nvidia.


Regards

Andy
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Old 05-21-03, 09:59 AM   #344
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Quote:
Originally posted by rokzy
so many blind nvidia lovers too.
And one idiot totally infatuated with ATi right now......but I got me some damned good reasons to be so in love with their new companies attitude.

It's the first time I've EVER had a graphics card company love me back, and it feels a WHOLE lot better than having 'em piss on me all the time like nVidia seems to.
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Old 05-21-03, 09:59 AM   #345
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Quote:
Originally posted by rokzy
so many blind nvidia lovers too.
i guess blind nvidia lovers should better learn what blind nvidia haters do and go over to ati fansites and say how they hate ati.
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Old 05-21-03, 10:08 AM   #346
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Quote:
Originally posted by Behemoth
i guess blind nvidia lovers should better learn what blind nvidia haters do and go over to ati fansites and say how they hate ati.
if you have legit and informative arguments that make SENSE... by all means... no one is stopping you
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Old 05-21-03, 10:12 AM   #347
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sazar
if you have legit and informative arguments that make SENSE... by all means... no one is stopping you
nah, i prefer to stay here sharing my nvidia experience, with rational friendly peepz preferably.
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Old 05-21-03, 10:15 AM   #348
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Quote:
Originally posted by Behemoth
nah, i prefer to stay here sharing my nvidia experience, with rational friendly peepz preferably.
so.. what was the logic of your previous post if you do not intend to go to an ati fansite ?

are you as bored as I am sitting here @ home sick

lol

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