Go Back   nV News Forums > Hardware Forums > Benchmarking And Overclocking

Newegg Daily Deals

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-22-03, 08:56 AM   #49
jbirney
Registered User
 
jbirney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,430
Default

Quote:
Not proven yet, we'll see what happens, shall we ? If a new driver set comes out and proves this, then it will shut up a lot of fanboys here (ATI). If not, then it will shut up a lot of fanboys here. (NV)
Nope it wont. Look at what happen to ATI, the 8500 and Q3 during the first few weeks of its launch. Yea that whole Q3 thing again. Cheat/bug? Well two weeks later a new driver came out and fixed the issue. IQ remained, speed reamined. Thus by your logic it should be a dead issue right? Wrong! Still to this day you see people bitching over it. The same thing will happen here.

Dave over at B3D found out something interesting. If you run without Splash screens, then one of the artifacts goes away. A small speed change (1-2%) is also seen. But the fact that their is a DIFFERENCE when splash screens is on or off makes it a bitter harder to believe its a true bug. Note I did not say it was or was not..just harder to think it is a bug.....
jbirney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-03, 02:02 PM   #50
Fusion
Sapphire Atlantis 9700Pro
 
Fusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 127
Default

I think, *maybe*, a reason they still bring up Quack is because it was done to a game that you could actually purchase off the shelf. And was currently THE best selling PC game of the time, that we were all playing.

3dmark, isn't a game. You can't purchase it in PCGameshopX.

And I'll bet that the biggest percentage of PC gamers don't actually know what 3dmark is.

Yet, the biggest percetage, if not almost complete percentage, know or have heard of Quake3.

Big difference.
1, is a blatant cheat in a top PC game of the time, thats actually VISIBLE and drastically affects IQ.
2, is a so-called cheat, in a benchmark only the PC elite are using.
And it isn't visible to us mortals, and doesn't affect IQ.

And why did top websites have to post this finding on the front page ? And in the manner they did.

It's like the thief thats condemned, without being allowed to put his side of the story across. And by the time he does, it's all too late and he's already been judged.

Why not email Nvidia about it first, see if they do something about it in a possible 'fix', THEN report it ?
And if it isn't fixed, then we can all jump on the wagon, and spout death to Nvidia. Or thats the impression I get.
__________________
MSI K7N2G Series Nforce 2
2x 512Mb PC3200 Corsair in Dual mode
Athlon XP 2.4 ghz, 200 mhz Bus at 11x - 2.2ghz Internal.
Sapphire Radeon 9700 Pro
SBLive ! Audigy 2
Bungholio Marks - 147
Fusion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-03, 02:20 PM   #51
digitalwanderer
 
digitalwanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Highland, IN USA
Posts: 4,944
Talking Ooooh, lemme take a swing at #2!

Quick gaming break, I have to catch me breath.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fusion
2, is a so-called cheat, in a benchmark only the PC elite are using.
And it isn't visible to us mortals, and doesn't affect IQ.

And why did top websites have to post this finding on the front page ? And in the manner they did.
You're forgetting one thing about that benchmark that is used exclusively by "the PC elite"....nVidia is using it to herald their card as the undisputed King. If it didn't mean anything except to the "PC elite" do you really think everyone would be making such a big deal about it?

Quote:
Why not email Nvidia about it first, see if they do something about it in a possible 'fix', THEN report it ?
Funny thing, I tried e-mailing 'em. They tried their damndest to get me fired, but they still haven't returned my e-mail.
__________________
[SIZE=1][I]"It was very important to us that NVIDIA did not know exactly where to aim. As a result they seem to have over-engineered in some aspects creating a power-hungry monster which is going to be very expensive for them to manufacture. We have a beautifully balanced piece of hardware that beats them on pure performance, cost, scalability, future mobile relevance, etc. That's all because they didn't know what to aim at."
-R.Huddy[/I] [/SIZE]
digitalwanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-03, 02:38 PM   #52
DivotMaker
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 823
Default Re: Ooooh, lemme take a swing at #2!

Quote:
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
nVidia is using it to herald their card as the undisputed King.
They are? Where? If I am not mistaken, they were more interested in Doom 3 by the reviews that I have read so far.

Quote:
Funny thing, I tried e-mailing 'em. They tried their damndest to get me fired, but they still haven't returned my e-mail.
While I have no idea what your relationship is with nVidia, I highly doubt they have the time to "try to get you fired". I am also quite sure that your efforts to make these "issues" public, quite possibly has alot to do with their lack of response to you directly. I just find it very hard to believe that such things are going on. I know several of the nVidia folks and they do not strike me as being that way whatsoever. I also think we can all make the assumption that they have a great many more important things on their plate right now...
DivotMaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-03, 03:10 PM   #53
jbirney
Registered User
 
jbirney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,430
Default

Quote:
I think, *maybe*, a reason they still bring up Quack is because it was done to a game that you could actually purchase off the shelf. And was currently THE best selling PC game of the time, that we were all playing.
Dont know about that as most people I know where not playing Q3 back then Q3 servers had fallen off to other games like RtCW seemed to be the big hit back then. BTW at least with that Q3 you actually got some performance gain out of the "cheat/bug". If you did not like the IQ changes you could always drop the slider bar on the textures down one notch and still enjoy the speed gains. Please show me how this cheat/bug in 3dmarks works in real games.....


Quote:
And I'll bet that the biggest percentage of PC gamers don't actually know what 3dmark is.
I would bet a much larger amount knows about 3dmark. Look at any PC magazine that they have Video card "reviews" and you will see out of the 2 or 3 benchmarks they use 3dmarks is usually one of them.

Quote:
Big difference.
1, is a blatant cheat in a top PC game of the time, that's actually VISIBLE and drastically affects IQ.
???? It was 5 textures. Almost all review sites missed this on the initial 8500 reviews even thought they showed Q3 screenies. It was only when NV provided them with the hints that they saw it.

Quote:
2, is a so-called cheat, in a benchmark only the PC elite are using.
Yea any one can download 3dmarks and run it. That's not elite. The current facts are that drivers have been increasing 3dmarks scores for awhile at the same time they are providing more smearing and other artifacts in 3dmarks.

Quote:
And it isn't visible to us mortals, and doesn't affect IQ.
I love this one. Just because you can not see it its not a cheat? Wow.

Quote:
And why did top websites have to post this finding on the front page ? And in the manner they did.
They were not handed the info as nV provide sites with the tool to rename and run Q3. Only beta partners have access to this version of 3dmarks. All the websites that are beta partners have confirmed they see this. Besides do you think that Anandtech, HardOCP, FS and the others have the techincal know how to understand? I dont think so.

Quote:
Why not email Nvidia about it first, see if they do something about it in a possible 'fix', THEN report it ?
And if it isn't fixed, then we can all jump on the wagon, and spout death to Nvidia. Or that's the impression I get.
Dave over at B3D sent them an email with his findings and asked nV for a explanation. That was on May 8th. Its now they 22nd. ATI had their Q3 fix 2 weeks after the cards have shipped. But publicly acknowledge this a week before. How much more time does nV need? Sorry NV has lost my trust with all of the dealings with the NV30 and prior actions.

Last edited by jbirney; 05-22-03 at 03:16 PM.
jbirney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-03, 03:26 PM   #54
jjjayb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 101
Default

Quote:
But I was very p1ssed off that day, and looking at the guys giving this guy grief just because he couldn't get the card going, kind of send me off the rail .
Heh, nice choice of words. Did you notice the clipping when you went off the rail?
jjjayb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-03, 03:57 PM   #55
digitalwanderer
 
digitalwanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Highland, IN USA
Posts: 4,944
Default Re: Re: Ooooh, lemme take a swing at #2!

Quote:
Originally posted by BigBerthaEA
I highly doubt they have the time to "try to get you fired". I am also quite sure that your efforts to make these "issues" public, quite possibly has alot to do with their lack of response to you directly. I just find it very hard to believe that such things are going on.
Believe what you want to/must. I know what happened.

As for my efforts to make this public having any bearing on their replying to me e-mail, I'd think it would speed up a reply if anything.

I agree that they have a whole lot better ways to be focusing/using their time right now, on that I fully agree.
__________________
[SIZE=1][I]"It was very important to us that NVIDIA did not know exactly where to aim. As a result they seem to have over-engineered in some aspects creating a power-hungry monster which is going to be very expensive for them to manufacture. We have a beautifully balanced piece of hardware that beats them on pure performance, cost, scalability, future mobile relevance, etc. That's all because they didn't know what to aim at."
-R.Huddy[/I] [/SIZE]
digitalwanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-03, 04:04 PM   #56
Sazar
Sayonara !!!
 
Sazar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 9,297
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by jbirney
Dont know about that as most people I know where not playing Q3 back then Q3 servers had fallen off to other games like RtCW seemed to be the big hit back then. BTW at least with that Q3 you actually got some performance gain out of the "cheat/bug". If you did not like the IQ changes you could always drop the slider bar on the textures down one notch and still enjoy the speed gains. Please show me how this cheat/bug in 3dmarks works in real games.....

I would bet a much larger amount knows about 3dmark. Look at any PC magazine that they have Video card "reviews" and you will see out of the 2 or 3 benchmarks they use 3dmarks is usually one of them.

???? It was 5 textures. Almost all review sites missed this on the initial 8500 reviews even thought they showed Q3 screenies. It was only when NV provided them with the hints that they saw it.

Yea any one can download 3dmarks and run it. That's not elite. The current facts are that drivers have been increasing 3dmarks scores for awhile at the same time they are providing more smearing and other artifacts in 3dmarks.

I love this one. Just because you can not see it its not a cheat? Wow.

They were not handed the info as nV provide sites with the tool to rename and run Q3. Only beta partners have access to this version of 3dmarks. All the websites that are beta partners have confirmed they see this. Besides do you think that Anandtech, HardOCP, FS and the others have the techincal know how to understand? I dont think so.

Dave over at B3D sent them an email with his findings and asked nV for a explanation. That was on May 8th. Its now they 22nd. ATI had their Q3 fix 2 weeks after the cards have shipped. But publicly acknowledge this a week before. How much more time does nV need? Sorry NV has lost my trust with all of the dealings with the NV30 and prior actions.
nice little response eh... good info...

one thing to back up your statements...

the 3dmark03 benchmark was dled over 1 million times within the first week... around 1.5 million per guestimates...

thats a LOT of users don't you think ? and its been many a month since the software was released.. I am sure a few more people have gotten their hands on it since..

the fact that some of these people may choose not to use the program means jackall since they dled it.. they must have had at least ONE run (unless technical difficulties popped up)

so... one of 2 things...

either there are MILLIONs of ELITE pc users or the benchmark really is popular...
Sazar is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 05-22-03, 04:10 PM   #57
bkswaney
Mr. Extreme!
 
bkswaney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: SC
Posts: 3,421
Send a message via Yahoo to bkswaney
Default

What in the hell is all the fuss about?????
If u do not want a NV35 then don't buy one.
What's the problem. No one cares if you trust nvidia or not.

There are lots who will buy a NV35 "like me"
no matter what a review site said.
Heck if I went by reviews I would not have a NV30.
But my NV30 rocks!
__________________
Notebook!
Compaq Presario CQ60-215DX
AMD 64 Athlon X2 @ 2GHz (QL62)
15.6 inch HD WideScreen
Nvidia 8200M-G 895mb
2Gig system ram
250Gig SATA 5400rpm HDrive
Vista Premium
bkswaney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-03, 04:13 PM   #58
DivotMaker
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 823
Default Re: Re: Re: Ooooh, lemme take a swing at #2!

Quote:
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Believe what you want to/must. I know what happened.

As for my efforts to make this public having any bearing on their replying to me e-mail, I'd think it would speed up a reply if anything.

I agree that they have a whole lot better ways to be focusing/using their time right now, on that I fully agree.
For one thing, I am not sure I understand what you would be "fired from".

Secondly, I am sure that if they DID respond to you, they would have no assurances that you would not paste the response across numerous forums, correct? I am thinking they will respond publicly on their terms, not when we think they should. However, I am anxious to see HOW they respond because they will be ultimately judged by their response.
DivotMaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-03, 04:18 PM   #59
Sazar
Sayonara !!!
 
Sazar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 9,297
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by bkswaney
What in the hell is all the fuss about?????
If u do not want a NV35 then don't buy one.
What's the problem. No one cares if you trust nvidia or not.

There are lots who will buy a NV35 "like me"
no matter what a review site said.
Heck if I went by reviews I would not have a NV30.
But my NV30 rocks!
the matter does not concern the nv35 or nv30 exclusively...

it encompasses the range of nv3x products and hence should perhaps be viewed as more far reaching than you are giving it credit for...

btw I don't recall too many people saying the nv35 sucked or anything... perhaps underwhelming but by no means a bad product...
Sazar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-03, 04:24 PM   #60
bkswaney
Mr. Extreme!
 
bkswaney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: SC
Posts: 3,421
Send a message via Yahoo to bkswaney
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Sazar
the matter does not concern the nv35 or nv30 exclusively...

it encompasses the range of nv3x products and hence should perhaps be viewed as more far reaching than you are giving it credit for...

btw I don't recall too many people saying the nv35 sucked or anything... perhaps underwhelming but by no means a bad product...
The fact of the matter is we are a small group when you look at the big picture.
9 out of 10 people do not read reviews and all.
They just buy what ever looks good in the store.
So I really do not think someone saying NV is chaeting is
really going to matter that much to nvidia.

Now as for as the line goes I agree.
The 5200 and 5600 really needed to be better products.
ATI has better in that area for sure.
Well, performance wise anyway.
__________________
Notebook!
Compaq Presario CQ60-215DX
AMD 64 Athlon X2 @ 2GHz (QL62)
15.6 inch HD WideScreen
Nvidia 8200M-G 895mb
2Gig system ram
250Gig SATA 5400rpm HDrive
Vista Premium
bkswaney is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1998 - 2014, nV News.