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Old 06-12-03, 07:14 PM   #1
brunes69
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Post Why I DONT Want them to Open Source them

The current drivers are not just OK, they are fantastic. I have been running three different NVidia cards under linux since the pre 1.0 series, and have never had more than a minor problem BEFORE 1.5, SINCE I have had 0 problems. They work awesome on any game I throw at them, and support all kinds of advanced features like TwinView TvOut, FSAA, etc flawlessly. Compared feature for feature to the linux ATI drivers, ATI is not even in the same galaxy. The ATI drivers are feature limited, slow, and unstable. I know this because I also recently had a Radeon card.

If they Open Sourced them, this would all go away. You know why? The reason the current drivers are so good is that they are MADE by NVidia, by employees PAID to make them, whereas the ATI drivers have virtually 0 support from ATI, its pretty much an independant effort. Sure, ATI makes the original reference ones, then throws out a spec sheet and says "have fun", saying "hey, we can get the drivers developed / maintained for free, why shoudl we waste effort?" No wonder they blow. I do not want this to happen to the current excellent NVidia drivers.

Come on, do you really think you are going to be able to make drivers better than the people who MAKE the hardware? I am all for Open Source in software, but in my drivers, I don't really give a damn. NVidia is not restricting anyones rights, the software would be useless without their hardware in the first place. All I want is stability, performance, and features on par with the windows drivers. And the NVidia Linux drivers have this in spades (they even have some TwinView features the Windows ones do not!!!)

End of rant. Now everyone get off their high horse and stop whining about such a stupid issue.
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Old 06-12-03, 08:29 PM   #2
Noth
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Come on, do you really think you are going to be able to make drivers better than the people who MAKE the hardware?
There are numerous Linux drivers that work much better than their closed-source (usually Windows) counterparts.

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I am all for Open Source in software, but in my drivers, I don't really give a damn.
That's strange, drivers are in a place to do the most damage if they're done poorly. A single bad driver can whipe one of your drives by accident, where as a single bad app can just crash.

Quote:
Now everyone get off their high horse and stop whining about such a stupid issue.
It's not a stupid issue. I personally would love nVidia to open their drivers, but it won't happen for a very long time, if at all. But their drivers work so I'm not complaining.
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Old 06-13-03, 10:10 AM   #3
plasma
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The current drivers are not just OK, they are fantastic.
Closed Nvidia drivers are the one thing that makes my machine unstable. Kernel maintainers aren't interested in tainted kernels (and I don't expect them to be) so this won't go away. That's not my idea of ok.

Official maintained drivers are just that, regardless of the licence. I don't see how releasing specs to hardware to allow 3rd party drivers can have a negative impact on existing drivers, If anything the effect could be positive if the free drivers outperformed the closed drivers.

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Come on, do you really think you are going to be able to make drivers better than the people who MAKE the hardware?
Not without all of the relevent details on the hardware. It would be easy to better the kernel framebuffer driver though. (It uses the generic one)
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I am all for Open Source in software, but in my drivers, I don't really give a damn.
That's a contradiction.

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All I want is stability, performance, and features on par with the windows drivers.
Does that include application specific optimisations? I don't want windows stability, I want Stability. Performance and features are secondary, but still important.

Last edited by plasma; 06-13-03 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 06-13-03, 02:07 PM   #4
Soulburner
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Default Re: Why I DONT Want them to Open Source them

Quote:
Originally posted by brunes69
The reason the current drivers are so good is that they are MADE by NVidia, by employees PAID to make them, whereas the ATI drivers have virtually 0 support from ATI, its pretty much an independant effort.
I want to get a job working on the FreeBSD drivers. I've always wanted a job where I got paid to do absolutely nothing.

Quote:
Quoth the FreeBSD drivers page:
Version: 1.0-3203
File Size: 3 MB
Release Date: November 7, 2002
My bitterness aside, I infact do believe that given the proper info, the open source community COULD make a much better driver. You said it yourself: the people making the driver are doing so because they're paid to do so. I have never considered money a motivator to do a good job. Let the people with a passion for what they do make the drivers.
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Old 06-13-03, 04:54 PM   #5
bwkaz
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Originally posted by plasma
Closed Nvidia drivers are the one thing that makes my machine unstable. Kernel maintainers aren't interested in tainted kernels (and I don't expect them to be) so this won't go away. That's not my idea of ok.
Are you saying that it's unstable because if the kernel oops'ed, the kernel people wouldn't support it?

That's not unstable, that's unsupported.

Unstable is "it oopses all the time"...
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Old 06-13-03, 05:53 PM   #6
SnapIT
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Default Re:I am a troll!

Yes, indeed you are a troll...

Why would you use an Open Source OS and then complain about Open Source?

Ok, so you are saying that Open Source is not good enough for you... then go back to your XP setup and be quiet...

Does anyone really believe that a couple of programmers can do the job better than a couple of hundreds of thousand programmers? if you do... then go closed source and be ignorant...

Oh, and the Linux drivers truly suck, the worst part of code i got in my system, Nvidia programmers should be ashamed of themselves...

//Snap
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Old 06-13-03, 06:16 PM   #7
Noth
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Yes, indeed you are a troll...
Are you the pot or the kettle in this conversation?

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Does anyone really believe that a couple of programmers can do the job better than a couple of hundreds of thousand programmers?
Of course I believe that. nVidia's programmers have all the specs, quirks, known bugs, etc right in front of them. You really believe the fact that there's more people working on the rest of the kernel would make the nVidia driver better? Hell I bet the majority of your 'hundreds of thousand programmers' working on the kernel would never even look at the nVidia driver source if it was there just because they're too busy working on whatever they maintain. Would you really want someone like Al Viro submitting patches for a video driver? I mean no disrepsect to Al, but his expertice isn't in that field at all.

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Oh, and the Linux drivers truly suck, the worst part of code i got in my system, Nvidia programmers should be ashamed of themselves...
Then stop bitching and work on making the OSS nv driver better. Once you get that doing 2D and 3D as well as the nVidia driver works for me, you can bitch all you want.
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Old 06-13-03, 06:31 PM   #8
SnapIT
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Originally posted by Noth
Are you the pot or the kettle in this conversation?



Of course I believe that. nVidia's programmers have all the specs, quirks, known bugs, etc right in front of them. You really believe the fact that there's more people working on the rest of the kernel would make the nVidia driver better? Hell I bet the majority of your 'hundreds of thousand programmers' working on the kernel would never even look at the nVidia driver source if it was there just because they're too busy working on whatever they maintain. Would you really want someone like Al Viro submitting patches for a video driver? I mean no disrepsect to Al, but his expertice isn't in that field at all.



Then stop bitching and work on making the OSS nv driver better. Once you get that doing 2D and 3D as well as the nVidia driver works for me, you can bitch all you want.
You really don't see what you are saying do you?

IF Nvidia went Open Source, all those specs would be available to the Open Source programmers... Hundreds of thousands of programmers with ideas, Nvidia would of course assemble the best of the best and release a driver, if there is a bug, in less than 36 hours you would find a fix, a simple patch, to patch the OS code...

Before you make any kind of statement like that, please educate yourself in Open Source programming.. until then.. STOP POSTING!

Oh, and those of you who use debian and Phoenix (i will still refuse to call it MozillaFirebird) there is something for you in the latest CVS release...

Open Souce works....
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Old 06-13-03, 07:10 PM   #9
Noth
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Before you make any kind of statement like that, please educate yourself in Open Source programming.. until then.. STOP POSTING!
I understand how OSS development works and I still don't think making the drivers OSS will yield the results you think will happen. If anything the drivers will get worse as nVidia would have to remove all the code they can't legally give a way, removing features that already work well.

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Oh, and those of you who use debian and Phoenix (i will still refuse to call it MozillaFirebird) there is something for you in the latest CVS release...
I tried Firebird and it crashed on me like 4 times in 2 hours, seems to me that piece of OSS software still needs a lot of work. I've since gone back to Galeon which works just fine.
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Old 06-13-03, 07:13 PM   #10
brunes69
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Default Bulk Reply

Heres a reply to a bunch of comments:

Quote:
here are numerous Linux drivers that work much better than their closed-source (usually Windows) counterparts.
Please name one X driver that works better than it's Windows counterpart? And define "works better" as well? From my experience the NVidia linux drivers work just as well as the Windows ones, with no issues, and also have advanced features not present in the Windows counterparts. Tough to beat.

Quote:
Closed Nvidia drivers are the one thing that makes my machine unstable. Kernel maintainers aren't interested in tainted kernels (and I don't expect them to be) so this won't go away. That's not my idea of ok.
Seeing I have used the drivers on 3 different systems with 3 different cards for years with no issues, I don't know where this is coming from. Fa rmore likely in my opinion you have either a) overheated hardware, or b) bad hardware somewhere.

Quote:
Not without all of the relevent details on the hardware.
The ATI open source people have all the details on the hardware, yet the drivers blow. They have horribly lacking 3d, no FSAA, no anisotropic filtering, no accelerated XRender, poor multiple display support... need I go on?

Quote:
My bitterness aside, I infact do believe that given the proper info, the open source community COULD make a much better driver.
See above. Everyone says "Open Source would be better!!!" but actual evidence shows otherwise.

Quote:
Why would you use an Open Source OS and then complain about Open Source?

Ok, so you are saying that Open Source is not good enough for you... then go back to your XP setup and be quiet...
Where is this from? Open Source is about Software Freedom. It is about me being able to look at some software's code, learn something, and improve on it and release the benefits to all, free of restrictions and free of charge.

This does not apply to drivers. the benefits would only be realized by NVidia card owners who already bought the card, so its not free of charge. And the quality of the code would not be as good as from the sourc e(NVidia), because no matter what specs I have access to, 1) I don't have 40 hours a week worth of my time to invest in it, and 2) I didn't *DESIGN* the hardware, so I don't know the little quirks and optimizations I can make due to things that aren't really in the specs.

Quote:
IF Nvidia went Open Source, all those specs would be available to the Open Source programmers... Hundreds of thousands of programmers with ideas, Nvidia would of course assemble the best of the best and release a driver, if there is a bug, in less than 36 hours you would find a fix, a simple patch, to patch the OS code...

Before you make any kind of statement like that, please educate yourself in Open Source programming.. until then.. STOP POSTING!
I would suggest you educate yourself in reality. The ATI experience is all you have to look at to know that Open Source + Specs is not as good as Closed Source from THE source.

Show me an ATI driver developed by the community that's even in the same ballpark as NVidia, and I will retract this. Until then, all your arguments are moot, since the real proof is right there with the ATI failure.
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Does anyone really believe that a couple of programmers can do the job better than a couple of hundreds of thousand programmers? if you do... then go closed source and be ignorant...
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Old 06-13-03, 07:20 PM   #11
bwkaz
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Surprise, surprise, here's SnapIT posting again.

Shut up and do it better yourself, or go away.
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Old 06-13-03, 07:27 PM   #12
SnapIT
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Quote:
Originally posted by brunes69
Heres a reply to a bunch of comments:



Please name one X driver that works better than it's Windows counterpart? And define "works better" as well? From my experience the NVidia linux drivers work just as well as the Windows ones, with no issues, and also have advanced features not present in the Windows counterparts. Tough to beat.



Seeing I have used the drivers on 3 different systems with 3 different cards for years with no issues, I don't know where this is coming from. Fa rmore likely in my opinion you have either a) overheated hardware, or b) bad hardware somewhere.



The ATI open source people have all the details on the hardware, yet the drivers blow. They have horribly lacking 3d, no FSAA, no anisotropic filtering, no accelerated XRender, poor multiple display support... need I go on?



See above. Everyone says "Open Source would be better!!!" but actual evidence shows otherwise.



Where is this from? Open Source is about Software Freedom. It is about me being able to look at some software's code, learn something, and improve on it and release the benefits to all, free of restrictions and free of charge.

This does not apply to drivers. the benefits would only be realized by NVidia card owners who already bought the card, so its not free of charge. And the quality of the code would not be as good as from the sourc e(NVidia), because no matter what specs I have access to, 1) I don't have 40 hours a week worth of my time to invest in it, and 2) I didn't *DESIGN* the hardware, so I don't know the little quirks and optimizations I can make due to things that aren't really in the specs.



I would suggest you educate yourself in reality. The ATI experience is all you have to look at to know that Open Source + Specs is not as good as Closed Source from THE source.

Show me an ATI driver developed by the community that's even in the same ballpark as NVidia, and I will retract this. Until then, all your arguments are moot, since the real proof is right there with the ATI failure.
As you refuse to see that drivers are part of the system, i dunno what to tell you except that you are wrong...

Drivers are very much integrated into the system, AMD, Adaptec and lots of other companies have OSS'd their drivers, good tor them...

For me, a programmer with extensive knowledge about how the kernel works, with extensive knowledge about the X setup i still have problems with Nvidia drivers, if they had the source available i could make it better, but i don't even have the specs... so...

To me, i could just as well use any old card with a good ramdac and without any processor at all, i cannot use it anyway...

Do you understand that i feel cheated, oh, there are drivers for linux, well, they don't WORK, i would say that is pretty critical...
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