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Old 05-23-03, 12:26 PM   #97
gordon151
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Originally posted by The Baron
Jesus Christ, why are we supposed to "trust" a company? A company is designed for one thing--to get YOU to give YOUR MONEY to THEM. I don't trust ATI, I don't trust NVIDIA--I look at performance, cost, and image quality (not necessarily in that order), and then I'll make a decision. I have no brand loyalty--I just buy what's best at the time.

I do, however, have a deep-seated hatred for Futuremark--if Futuremark didn't exist, then we'd be getting benchmarks from games. So if we were getting benchmarks from games, then the companies would optimize for games. And even if they did cheat a la the NVIDIA 3DMark cheats, then we (AS A COMMUNITY) would be able to tell--not some guy with a developer edition.

Hell, release an edition to everyone that allows you to change the camera, Futuremark. Then I'll believe that you don't suck.
Like c4c said, how would you know you aren't being cheated with game benchmarking? In most cases I'd assume it's easy for driver designer teams to detect whenever a game is running a timedemo and easily cheat in that. It's way hard to detect such cheats and rarely do people do in-game benchmarking so we never get to backup the findings that we see from the benchmarking.
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Old 05-23-03, 12:28 PM   #98
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Like c4c said, how do you know you aren't being cheated with game benchmarking too? In most cases I'd assume it's easy for driver designer teams to detect whenever a game is running a timedemo and easily cheat in that. It's way hard to detect such cheats and rarely do people do in-game benchmarking so we never get to backup the findings that we see from the benchmarking.
Give me two weeks, and I'll tell you how I know. Working on an article about that right now, and I have a solution. It ain't pretty (yet, this is sort of a bastardized thing I've done, but if other people take the idea and run with it, it'll be great), but it works, and it gives reliable scores.
 
Old 05-23-03, 12:29 PM   #99
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Originally posted by The Baron [b]I do, however, have a deep-seated hatred for Futuremark--if Futuremark didn't exist, then we'd be getting benchmarks from games.
Yeah! Damn you Futuremark for preventing websites from benchmarking vid-cards with Quake3, UT2K3, Max Payne, Serious Sam, Comanche3 etc. etc. etc.
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Old 05-23-03, 12:30 PM   #100
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Yeah! Damn you Futuremark for preventing websites from benchmarking vid-cards with Quake3, UT2K3, Max Payne, Serious Sam, Comanche3 etc. etc. etc.
How many people do you see with Unreal Tournament 2003 scores in their sigs? Or Comanche 4 scores? Or anything like that?

No individual benchmarks games anymore because he assumes that 3DMark will give him a score that magically corresponds to his performance in actual stuff.
 
Old 05-23-03, 12:35 PM   #101
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nonono... the reason we dont have ut2003 scores in our sigs is because anyone can fix that to give them any fps they want... walk around the map, turn off all bots, and stare at the floor.. gives you the most fps... to have an accurate way of testing various systems and video cards, we need a benchmark that is on a rail, that shows the benchmark the same way every time.

the problem is that if a benchmark is "on a rail" then video card companies can easily optimize... since they know exactly whats coming next... bah this is so confusing
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Old 05-23-03, 12:36 PM   #102
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Originally posted by The Baron
[b]How many people do you see with Unreal Tournament 2003 scores in their sigs? Or Comanche 4 scores? Or anything like that?
So it's FM's fault if people put their 3DMark-scores in their sigs instead of their UT2K3-score?

Uh, OK...

Tell me: is FM forcing them to do that or something?

Quote:
No individual benchmarks games anymore because he assumes that 3DMark will give him a score that magically corresponds to his performance in actual stuff.
Not quite. All websites I know run several benchmarks using several apps. And all people I know do the same when they benchmark their cards.

And again: you blame FM for something that peope freely choose to do? I bet you also support the fatsos who sued McDonalds because "McD made us fat!"
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Old 05-23-03, 12:37 PM   #103
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Originally posted by The Baron
*sigh* That's why games have SDKs--you can put your own stuff in, and you will know if it's working correctly or not.
Ehm, 99% of the games out there does not have a SDK. Also, having access to an SDK also does help you a whole lot in determining whether there are cheats or not.
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Old 05-23-03, 12:37 PM   #104
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Originally posted by Moose
How will you know that you aren't being cheated?????

Will you know from looking at your monitor that that was how the game was coded to look???

Wow, the logic of some "obviously fanboy blinded" people here amazes me.

#1 if your Video card COmpany [TELLS YOUTO NOT TRUST] in one benchmark, that is easy to cheat there ,that IS-NOT real. if they
warn you to not trust in a benchmark scores,that they believe does-not represent your video card real performance.. then not you are not cheated.

#2 if a company sponsor a benchmark , and tells you they believe in it..
,that it represent an accurate measure of performance and later they
inflate their scores artificially ,then you have been cheated..

the question is WHo is #1 and who is #2
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Old 05-23-03, 12:38 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Baron

No individual benchmarks games anymore because he assumes that 3DMark will give him a score that magically corresponds to his performance in actual stuff.
And in alot of cases it does...

I don't know where this argument ever started. But it is something that didn't get real big until nVidia started spewing their BS.
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Old 05-23-03, 12:42 PM   #106
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No individual benchmarks games anymore because he assumes that 3DMark will give him a score that magically corresponds to his performance in actual stuff.
OK, yeah, your argument about websites therefore is not what I'm saying.

Quote:
And in alot of cases it does...
Yeah, sometimes it does. But, we also have stupid driver cheats from EVERY COMPANY (except Matrox. ) that prevent 3DMark from being reliable. If they have to release a new version with a different CRC every time a new driver set comes out, there is a serious problem.
 
Old 05-23-03, 12:43 PM   #107
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Originally posted by Nv40
#1 if your Video card COmpany [TELLS YOUTO NOT TRUST] in one benchmark, that is easy to cheat there ,that IS-NOT real. if they
warn you to not trust in a benchmark scores,that they believe does-not represent your video card real performance.. then not you are not cheated.

#2 if a company sponsor a benchmark , and tells you they believe in it..
,that it represent an accurate measure of performance and later they
inflate their scores artificially ,then you have been cheated..

the question is WHo is #1 and who is #2
Mebbe you should try writing this over in your native tongue and we'll all have an easier time just babble-fishing it....
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Old 05-23-03, 12:43 PM   #108
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Hey Nv40.

That's the most mind-bogglingly nVidiot reasoning I've ever seen in my life!

Thanks for the entertainment. Good work fellah!

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