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Old 01-10-09, 10:41 PM   #49
ChrisRay
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Default Re: EVGA GTX 295 Quad SLI!

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Originally Posted by jeong View Post
Very good point. I cannot agree with you more. No offense to Chris but his 9800GX2 quad-SLI review on SLI Zone has NO mention whatsoever of micro-stuttering/low min FPS even though it was VERY apparent.There is no doubt that Chris himself encountered these during the course of reviewing the setup at that time, and yet he chose not to disclose these vital information. Only when other others reported these problems was I able to grasp that 9800GX2 is a bad card indeed.

Heavy emphasis on how good the latest card was, and yet very little mention of what the cons were clearly suggesting that the review was not comprehensive at all and hence biased writing only what the person sees 'fit'. After searching and reading about 9800GX2, I see about 99% of 9800GX2 owners were unpleasantly dissatisfied and vowed never to get a dual GPU card ever again.

Perhaps after spending 1k+ on a pair of graphics cards alone only to find out gaming experience was worse than having a single 8800GTX, 'they' decided not to divulge the issues of 9800GX2's since the setup certainly didn't justify the cost or the performance. It is absolutely unbelievable to see how these 'reviews' pay little attention to what plagued 9800GX2: microstuttering.

The only way to find out whether a card is 'good' or 'bad' is to either find out myself or wait 3-4 months until what others say. Since I have gone w/ the 1st option, I will definitely comment on microstuttering once I have my new rig built and tested starting with Crysis/Crysis Warhead.

*Sigh* I have talked about this issue plenty. Maybe I made a mistake when I previewed the 9800GX2 by assuming people were aware that SLI did not always offer stable frame times. But I very clearly pointed out its memory limitations being a potential problem for the 9800GX2 as well as multiple posts on the issue as they came up.

The 9800GX2's microstutter had much less to do with AFR but more to do with its memory limitations. Which is a subject I clearly discussed when previewing the card. Also in regards to "Noticing it". I havent run a non SLI rig since the Geforce 6. And things havent changed regarding AFR frame times since then. So my experience hasn't changed any from the Geforce 6 to Geforce GTX 295 and I've had more SLI setups than I can count. The improvements you likely saw with the 8800GTX were more memory related than actual AFR related. In hind sight. I think alot of people who previewed the card wish they could have talked more about the memory limitations. I did not expect them to come into play as much as they did so quickly. And moving forward I discussed memory bottlenecks as much as I could when spending more than 200 dollars.


All this talk about drivers improving/fixing microstuttering are nonsense. As long as you use AFR there is the potential for non stable frametimes. Also frametimes are "never" consistent. Whether you use a single GPU or Quad GPU. Your games, AVG/Min framerates will vary with a single and multi GPU. Theres just a potential for AFR to produce spikier inter-frame delay. Lastly, I don't consider this is a big deal. If it was something that popped out and annoyed the hell out of me. I woulda mentioned it. The fact that alot of previewers/reviewers don't discuss it because it really isn't the giant problem a select few make it out to be.

*edit*
Lastly, I'm not perfect. I learn from my mistakes. And work to always better things as time moved forward. And I discuss it in every multi GPU preview I do now to the point where I say it carries SLI's inherit limitation. As well as SLI regarding single and multi GPU such as 9800GTX SLI verses GTX 280. But I am not gonna go out of my way to tell people to avoid multi GPU completely based on an issue that is subjective as hell from a users experience PoV and that varies greatly based on your actual framerates. The best solution is to simply tell people that its an SLI on a stick and it carries the same limitations as SLI. The more GPUs the more the cons and benefits of SLI come into play. Now I hope this post doesn't come across as pissy but you made it sound like I was deliberately misleading people. Which I wasn't.
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Old 01-10-09, 11:06 PM   #50
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Default Re: EVGA GTX 295 Quad SLI!

Considering there was very little to no microstuttering on the 4870X2, it would make sense that it doesn't plague the 295, either.

I noticed very little of it in CrossfireX on my two 4870X2s. The issue is overblown, IMO. However, there are scaling and compatibility issues with multi-GPU technology that need to keep improving for it to be an optimal choice for hardware (bring on Hydra!) I just have trouble justifying the expense these days since the PC gaming market is made up mostly of console ports and titles made to run on hardware from 2-3 years ago.

Nice setup, though.
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Old 01-10-09, 11:13 PM   #51
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Default Re: EVGA GTX 295 Quad SLI!

Another thing.. I have been beating the 512 meg stick for some time now.. to the point I have even gotten into some arguments here.
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Old 01-11-09, 12:25 AM   #52
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Default Re: EVGA GTX 295 Quad SLI!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kowan View Post
Same here. Monster setup but using a 24in monitor?
I am currently sourcing out the 30" LCD I have been waiting for. NEC LCD3090-BK-SV. Rome was not built in a day and the 22" DP2070SB-SV has done wonderful since Jan 2003. She looks good at 2048x1536 @85hz. I just can not handle TN- PVA-MVA panels. Only sad thing is the H-IPS panel on the LCD3090-BK-SV does not have the A-TW.

I mostly use my PC for making music but, it seconds as a gaming rig. Gaming is not primary.

Thank you,
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Old 01-11-09, 09:00 AM   #53
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Default Re: EVGA GTX 295 Quad SLI!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisRay View Post
*Sigh* I have talked about this issue plenty. Maybe I made a mistake when I previewed the 9800GX2 by assuming people were aware that SLI did not always offer stable frame times. But I very clearly pointed out its memory limitations being a potential problem for the 9800GX2 as well as multiple posts on the issue as they came up.

The 9800GX2's microstutter had much less to do with AFR but more to do with its memory limitations. Which is a subject I clearly discussed when previewing the card. Also in regards to "Noticing it". I havent run a non SLI rig since the Geforce 6. And things havent changed regarding AFR frame times since then. So my experience hasn't changed any from the Geforce 6 to Geforce GTX 295 and I've had more SLI setups than I can count. The improvements you likely saw with the 8800GTX were more memory related than actual AFR related. In hind sight. I think alot of people who previewed the card wish they could have talked more about the memory limitations. I did not expect them to come into play as much as they did so quickly. And moving forward I discussed memory bottlenecks as much as I could when spending more than 200 dollars.


All this talk about drivers improving/fixing microstuttering are nonsense. As long as you use AFR there is the potential for non stable frametimes. Also frametimes are "never" consistent. Whether you use a single GPU or Quad GPU. Your games, AVG/Min framerates will vary with a single and multi GPU. Theres just a potential for AFR to produce spikier inter-frame delay. Lastly, I don't consider this is a big deal. If it was something that popped out and annoyed the hell out of me. I woulda mentioned it. The fact that alot of previewers/reviewers don't discuss it because it really isn't the giant problem a select few make it out to be.

*edit*
Lastly, I'm not perfect. I learn from my mistakes. And work to always better things as time moved forward. And I discuss it in every multi GPU preview I do now to the point where I say it carries SLI's inherit limitation. As well as SLI regarding single and multi GPU such as 9800GTX SLI verses GTX 280. But I am not gonna go out of my way to tell people to avoid multi GPU completely based on an issue that is subjective as hell from a users experience PoV and that varies greatly based on your actual framerates. The best solution is to simply tell people that its an SLI on a stick and it carries the same limitations as SLI. The more GPUs the more the cons and benefits of SLI come into play. Now I hope this post doesn't come across as pissy but you made it sound like I was deliberately misleading people. Which I wasn't.
I think the assumption when a new dual card comes out is that micro stutter had been addressed or corrected. The assumption is not that, oh well its still gonna micro stutter, its a dual card. I know now that this to me makes for a lousy gaming experience. I don't care if the highs are soaring, if there are drops, dips and stutters I'd rather have a single GPU that may be slower but have a much better gaming experience. Like I said before I went from an 8800GTX to the 9800GX2. I was so disappointed with the stutter, hitches and pauses that I sold it and went back to an 8800GTX. Sure it was slower but to just game it was much smoother and made the gaming experience much better.

The problem with reviews today is that it's not about the gaming experience. Sure Hardocp thinks they are the authority on this but their reviews are so fouled up with different settings and such high resolutions that the information for the 98% of us running 1680 is useless anyways. The reviews need to be a little bit less about spitting out a number to compare these cards and more about the actual experience. If this was the case no one would run out and buy a GX2 card but it's not the consumers fault that the SLI limitations aren't favorable, it's the products fault. Sometimes you just have to call a duck a duck.

I'll be waiting for the next best thing in a single GPU solution. Thanks for the heads up. I just lost Nvidia about 15 sales on GTX 295s (a bunch of people at work were ready to pull the trigger on these cards) too but better to let them know the SLI limitations still exist and it's better to stick with a single GPU.
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Old 01-11-09, 10:28 AM   #54
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Default Re: EVGA GTX 295 Quad SLI!

I was running 8800GTX SLI when the GX2 was released and never noticed MS enough to have me thinking of running a single card. I thought the GX2 a step backward compared to what 8800GTX SLI offered because of it's limited memory.

I upgraded to 280s and have two very similar setups folding 24/7 or would try a Quad SLI with the 295 for gaming/folding.

[H]ardOCP states when a better gaming experience is shown with one card over the other/s even though the numbers might lead you to think otherwise.
I read many reviews and user feedback threads prior to purchase or advice to friends/co-workers on a card for their uses.
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Old 01-11-09, 10:41 AM   #55
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Default Re: EVGA GTX 295 Quad SLI!

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Originally Posted by lee63 View Post
Yes he does...I know Jacob very well, if there where issues with the hardware I know he would disclose them. I cant believe all the negativity in this thread, it just pathetic. I would trust Jacobs reviews over anyone's... this guy knows his sh*t.
there's haters everywhere lee
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Old 01-11-09, 03:13 PM   #56
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Default Re: EVGA GTX 295 Quad SLI!

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I think the assumption when a new dual card comes out is that micro stutter had been addressed or corrected. The assumption is not that, oh well its still gonna micro stutter, its a dual card. I know now that this to me makes for a lousy gaming experience. I don't care if the highs are soaring, if there are drops, dips and stutters I'd rather have a single GPU that may be slower but have a much better gaming experience. Like I said before I went from an 8800GTX to the 9800GX2. I was so disappointed with the stutter, hitches and pauses that I sold it and went back to an 8800GTX. Sure it was slower but to just game it was much smoother and made the gaming experience much better.

.
I still think your problems here were more related to the memory amount than the actual AFR implementation. The 9800GX2 requires alot more use of virtual memory than the 8800GTX did. Especally if you were playing at 1200P. I would still rather game at 60 FPS on a multi GPU than I would 35 FPS on a single GPU.
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Old 01-11-09, 03:18 PM   #57
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Default Re: EVGA GTX 295 Quad SLI!

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there's haters everywhere lee
tell us about it, the guys a tool.
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Old 01-11-09, 03:52 PM   #58
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Default Re: EVGA GTX 295 Quad SLI!

Chris I see in your sig:
Video:Geforce GTX295 Quad SLIMonitor:1680x1050\/Olevia 27 Inch Widescreen HDTV 1920x1080


Is there a way you can test higher resolutions with the quad sli setup?

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Old 01-11-09, 04:49 PM   #59
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Default Re: EVGA GTX 295 Quad SLI!

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Originally Posted by ChrisRay View Post
I still think your problems here were more related to the memory amount than the actual AFR implementation. The 9800GX2 requires alot more use of virtual memory than the 8800GTX did. Especally if you were playing at 1200P. I would still rather game at 60 FPS on a multi GPU than I would 35 FPS on a single GPU.
I think that's what the main problem was with the 9800GX2. It was almost doomed from the start. There were graphs showing that the 8800GTX was faster than a 9800GTX at even 1920 x 1200 because of the vram limitations. It would be interesting to see a review done now with 9800GX2 quad SLI and the I7 at high frequencies. Use a lower resolution like 1280 x 1024 and see what kind of scaling the cards actually have. They probably won't stutter because of the lower memory requirements, but won't be bottlenecked as much by the cpu.
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Old 01-11-09, 04:51 PM   #60
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Default Re: EVGA GTX 295 Quad SLI!

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Originally Posted by Kowan View Post
I was running 8800GTX SLI when the GX2 was released and never noticed MS enough to have me thinking of running a single card. I thought the GX2 a step backward compared to what 8800GTX SLI offered because of it's limited memory.
.
I had alot of microstuttering with my 8800GTX cards in Crysis, had like 40 fps but man it was slow and sluggish lol, by then i couldn't figure out why. Until i read more about microstuttering.

Cheers!

And JAKUP, you should try Supersample AA in crysis via nHancer rather than any ingame AA or 64xAA... It works and the quality is 3 times higher than regular. Because it renders the game at a lot higher quality and dowsizes it to your preferred resolution. Works nice but have a enormus performance impact. Would be cool to see how like 2x2 SSAA wold run on your quad SLI setup...
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