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Old 06-02-03, 10:43 PM   #133
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I hope they at least got a reach around........ and were able to apply a thick wad of KY B4 hand.
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Old 06-02-03, 10:44 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally posted by Neural
Ive just been reading over everyones thoughts, so just thought i would mention a few of my own. I know I'm new here so flame away if you like.

First, part of me thinks detecting a benchmark and changing its default paths is "wrong", whether "wrong" means "cheat" or "optimization". I would sincerely like to know if someone here could could explain how nVidia could hide the clip panes in their drivers?

*BUT* there may be another way of looking at this.

I think that whether we like it or not, all the big players in software and hardware think it is acceptable to optimize software code so that certain hardware runs better/faster. Intel has been doing the same thing (working to optimize code for their own products) for years as nVidia is trying to do, and for the same reasons as nVidia. Intel even has specific names for their optimizations, i.e. SSE, SSE2, 3.... and intel would be blown out in most applications by AMD if it werent for these optimizations even in BENCHMARKS where you can bet Intel is making sure their optimized instructions aer implemented. While this does effectively assure that AMD will never control the market, I still find it hard to fault intel for making its products work better as long as windows still looks like windows, and UT2K3 still plays like UT2K3. I notice alot of people using P4's in here so it stands to reason that most feel that this is acceptable.

So would it be the same if nVidia optimized software for their architecture, IF everything still looked and played the same? This all assuming that clip panes are of course not used as that would of course be wrong.

On a personal note, I like my 9500np128 mostly for its better image quality, but 8 pipes at 375/642 also runs games pretty good too. Hooray for competition!
I agree with your post. But you said it yourself, it would only be the same if nvidia's "optimizations" didn't change the way things looked, which they do.

ATI's optimizations didn't change the IQ
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Old 06-02-03, 10:48 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally posted by jAkUp
remember when quake2 had that ingame benchmark? i think it was ~timerefresh... or something like that... where the camera would spin around? theres no way to fix that benchie... because you could always do it in a different spot... is that accurate? why dont the newer games have something like this?
Because it's useless as an indicator of real world gaming performance. Unless all you do is spin around in one spot while playing a game.
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Old 06-02-03, 10:49 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisRay
*forest gump voice*

What do I think of this responce...? It surprises me..


so far thats all I have to say about that...
Thanks Chris, that's the closest I've came to a smile over this all night.

Quote:
Originally posted by bkswaney
No problem.
I just like getting all the facts straight and not hear say.
So they did cheat. Even tho FM now say they did not.
Boy what a mess.
Y'know I never thought I'd hear you say that, perhaps this makes it worth it after all. :wry grin peeking thru the clenched and grinding teeth:

Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisRay
There is something ironic about this to me. a discussion me and digital had on another thread....
....Maybe I was right?
There goes that tiny bit of a smile trying to peek thru.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jovi
This you over on rage? Cracked me up. I think both sides of the issue need to lay low and kill the smack talk.
I've never really been the "lay low" kind of guy, much more the "stomp about and shout" kind.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jovi
And what purpose would that serve if it is relevent to the conversation at hand? I have read at least a dozen sites listed here and neary a mention to them.
Yeah, but you're posting ME from over there. If I wanted to say that here I'd say that here, but I know it's inapropriate for this forum and the mods would get miffed at me since I should know better so I post it over there where such behavoir is much more expected/allowed from me. Every site has got it's own set of norms/different flavor and what I post over there ain't always appropriate over here.

If you really need to quote my inflamatory stuff from over there you could probably get away with linking it, but I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't directly quote my rants from over there as I am trying REALLY HARD not to rant here about this.
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Old 06-02-03, 10:49 PM   #137
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Didn't cheat! Well in my book they did!
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Old 06-02-03, 10:50 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jovi
And what purpose would that serve if it is relevent to the conversation at hand? I have read at least a dozen sites listed here and neary a mention to them.
It is not relevant what someone at Rage3d says at all, if they do not say the same thing or say it in the same way here at nV News.

What are you trying to do, character assassinate DigitalWanderer? I don't care, nor should anyone else, how he handles himself on other sites, as long as he keeps himself under control here.
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Old 06-02-03, 10:51 PM   #139
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Quote:
There goes that tiny bit of a smile trying to peek thru.
I was obviously being sarcastic. It's just an ironic sarcastic joke about our previous conversation
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Old 06-02-03, 10:51 PM   #140
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh my gods!

Quote:
Originally posted by StealthHawk
It is not relevant what someone at Rage3d says at all, if they do not say the same thing or say it in the same way here at nV News.

What are you trying to do, character assassinate DigitalWanderer? I don't care, nor should anyone else, how he handles himself on other sites, as long as he keeps himself under control here.
JINX!!!!!

(Ok, for some reason THAT got a grin out of me! )
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[SIZE=1][I]"It was very important to us that NVIDIA did not know exactly where to aim. As a result they seem to have over-engineered in some aspects creating a power-hungry monster which is going to be very expensive for them to manufacture. We have a beautifully balanced piece of hardware that beats them on pure performance, cost, scalability, future mobile relevance, etc. That's all because they didn't know what to aim at."
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Old 06-02-03, 10:52 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisRay
I was obviously being sarcastic
So was I Chris, sorry if I implied otherwise.
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[SIZE=1][I]"It was very important to us that NVIDIA did not know exactly where to aim. As a result they seem to have over-engineered in some aspects creating a power-hungry monster which is going to be very expensive for them to manufacture. We have a beautifully balanced piece of hardware that beats them on pure performance, cost, scalability, future mobile relevance, etc. That's all because they didn't know what to aim at."
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Old 06-02-03, 10:53 PM   #142
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Muzz- I'm hoping the new kt600 chipset pans out, its in production now, preliminary tests show it to be faster than nf2, lets hope they have the compatibility/stability thing down and then:

"POOF- all is now AOK" (I love that, talk about irredeemable)

Actually as I seriously disprove of Nvidia's tactic lately, this is good. I thought they were going to get away with playing it quiet. Now, THIS is going to BLOW UP REAL GOOD.


TTTOOOOOTTTTTAAAALLLLLLLYYYYYYY UNBELIEVABLE.

Wonder how the rest of the computer industry will react to this?
This effects ALL benchmarking on ALL Hardware!

Incredible.

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Old 06-02-03, 10:53 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally posted by jAkUp
i dont think there is really any good way to test the different fps in games anymore. 3dmark01 used to be good... (besides the fact it was WAY WAY to oversensitive to fsb overclocks... but at default fsb its pretty good.) 3dmark03 is trash imo...
I don't entirely agree. Do we really know if everyone was cheating in 3dmark01 or not? Sure they didn't get caught, but that doesn't mean anything. For memory there was a driver release or two that gave some huge performance increases in that benchmark. We don't really know they weren't cheats do we?

Obviously as 3dmark01 got older it turned into more of a system benchmark rather than a video card bechmark which is kind of a handy thing to have I guess. Just not any good at all for comparing video cards.

3dmark03 wasn't that bad, I think it seemed a bit like 01 when that first came out. Pretty intensive for a video card. There was only really one card at the time that could run the whole thing. The only reasons that I could see why so many people were dissapointed in 3dmark03 was because it chugged and they got really low scores when they were used to getting high scores, and of course the public trashing of the benchmark by nvidia didn't help it. Due to this recent news, I think it's totally worthless. I also think all benchmarks will be. The popular ones more likely.

Quote:
Originally posted by jAkUp
remember when quake2 had that ingame benchmark? i think it was ~timerefresh... or something like that... where the camera would spin around? theres no way to fix that benchie... because you could always do it in a different spot... is that accurate? why dont the newer games have something like this?
yes, I remember that. It's in half-life also.(same engine i think) It's far too inaccurate though. It depends on where you stand and what you are looking at.
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Old 06-02-03, 10:54 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
So was I Chris, sorry if I implied otherwise.

gotcha. Heh It's really hard for me to form an opinion on this issue. I'm kinda torn between my hatred for 3dmark and the kinda utter ludicrousy of the whole situation
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