Go Back   nV News Forums > Hardware Forums > Benchmarking And Overclocking

Newegg Daily Deals

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-03-03, 03:17 PM   #277
Zenikase
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 99
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by ImaginaryFiend
Here's Nvidia's first pixel shader patent. The reason I think they are the only ones capable of cinematic shading is that ATI can only do 64 instruction-long programs. Nvidia can do at least 1024 instructions. Nvidia also has fp32, which cinematic renderers use. ATI also has severe restrictions on the texture lookups, which is unacceptable for renderman-like shaders.
That's not exactly correct. The R300 can have up to 32 texture instructions and up to 128 arithmetic instructions (64 for scalars and 64 for vectors), altogether 160 instructions. NV30 can do 1024 altogether (texture and ALU instructions are shared).

In addition, the professional sector makes up a very small portion of nVidia's sales. Most people just want a video card that will give them pleasant visuals in DX8.1-optimized games (ie, DoomIII, Deus Ex 2, Half-Life 2). Extremely long instructions and FP32-quality color won't occur for at least a good year or so. nVidia's just tooting their own horn.

Last edited by Zenikase; 06-03-03 at 03:24 PM.
Zenikase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-03, 03:19 PM   #278
TheFrnchTickler
Registered User
 
TheFrnchTickler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 40
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
ATi did not leak Doom 3. Even Id publcally stated this.

Another case where Nvidia fansites continue to spread misinformation and at the same time try to claim that Nvidia is not evil..

I also have *factual* issues with nearly every scentance posted in the above thread..

Example

None of the above is True at all. And thats just to start.

And you guys wonder why i resort to flaming on occasion...
Hmm... not to doubt you, or the person that made this claim, but can either of you back up what you state?

Hellbinder: can you post a link to something before nvidia's time demonstrating these things? (96 or earlier is probably good, since they only had the nv1 before 96)

Imaginaryfiend: same goes for you, can you show any proof (beyond3d article? nvidia whitepaper?)? I notice that this is your first post on the board. It's a little suspicious, not that I'm inclined to believe Hillbinder first, as he has demonstrated his rabid-fanboy status repeatedly.
TheFrnchTickler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-03, 03:49 PM   #279
deejaya
Monster 3d
 
deejaya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 200
Default

Wow, still open

I would like to see a link where id publically stated ATi did not leak Doom 3 alpha. Last I can remember was some ATi employee being fired or something similar.
deejaya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-03, 03:57 PM   #280
Hellbinder
 
Hellbinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: CDA
Posts: 1,510
Default

Quote:
as he has demonstrated his rabid-fanboy status repeatedly.
Great....

And no i am not going to prove anything. The information is easily obtainable with a simple Google Search.

If you and others would actually do some *beep* research once in a while you might discover the truth that i am not a *rabbid Fanboy*.
__________________
Overam Mirage 4700
3.2ghz P4 HT
SIS 748FX Chipset 800mhz FSB
1Gig DDR-400
60Gig 7200RPM HD
Radeon 9600M Turbo 128 (400/250)
Catalyst 4.2
Latest good read. [url]http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTc4LDE=http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTc4LDE=[/url]
Hellbinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-03, 04:04 PM   #281
Hellbinder
 
Hellbinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: CDA
Posts: 1,510
Default

Quote:
That's not exactly correct. The R300 can have up to 32 texture instructions and up to 128 arithmetic instructions (64 for scalars and 64 for vectors), altogether 160 instructions. NV30 can do 1024 altogether (texture and ALU instructions are shared).

In addition, the professional sector makes up a very small portion of nVidia's sales. Most people just want a video card that will give them pleasant visuals in DX8.1-optimized games (ie, DoomIII, Deus Ex 2, Half-Life 2). Extremely long instructions and FP32-quality color won't occur for at least a good year or so. nVidia's just tooting their own horn.
Which is not really covering the entire story either.

Nvidia cant run at any speed in FP32 color mode which is the Dx9 standard for *cinematic shading*. Further the R350 via its Hardware F-Bufer Technology can process near limitless instructions. In fact they recently Demod several hundred instruction shader running at ove well playable FPS when the FX could only process the same code at less than 3 FPS.

Of Course Nvidia could recompile really long shaders with Cg for the Nv35 as well. But, it is still limited in many ways. In reality the Nv35 will never be able to handle the Raw instruction count of the R350. Its that simple. Nor would they ever be able to render several hundred instruction long shaders at Full percision.

(im talking Nv30/35 not Nv40)
__________________
Overam Mirage 4700
3.2ghz P4 HT
SIS 748FX Chipset 800mhz FSB
1Gig DDR-400
60Gig 7200RPM HD
Radeon 9600M Turbo 128 (400/250)
Catalyst 4.2
Latest good read. [url]http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTc4LDE=http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTc4LDE=[/url]
Hellbinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-03, 04:06 PM   #282
ImaginaryFiend
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Oregon
Posts: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
Great....

And no i am not going to prove anything. The information is easily obtainable with a simple Google Search.

If you and others would actually do some *beep* research once in a while you might discover the truth that i am not a *rabbid Fanboy*.
Google Search is exactly what I did to find the Nvidia patents that proved my points.

As for the timing of each of Nvidia's inventions and when ATI came out with their version, it's common knowledge, but you can check Tom's Hardware for the history.

Maybe you're not rabid, but given your lack of any evidence (and what I believe to be the wrongness of your position), you appear uninformed.
ImaginaryFiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-03, 04:08 PM   #283
TheFrnchTickler
Registered User
 
TheFrnchTickler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 40
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
Great....

And no i am not going to prove anything. The information is easily obtainable with a simple Google Search.

If you and others would actually do some *beep* research once in a while you might discover the truth that i am not a *rabbid Fanboy*.
No, the burden of proof lies on he who makes the claim. Imaginaryfiend made a claim, and you made a counter claim. I simply came along and asked if either of you can prove you're right. It's not my job to prove you're wrong, it's your job to verify your claim or have no credibility (and be relegated to the fanboy label).

Have a nice day.
TheFrnchTickler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-03, 04:15 PM   #284
ImaginaryFiend
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Oregon
Posts: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
Which is not really covering the entire story either.

Nvidia cant run at any speed in FP32 color mode which is the Dx9 standard for *cinematic shading*. Further the R350 via its Hardware F-Bufer Technology can process near limitless instructions. In fact they recently Demod several hundred instruction shader running at ove well playable FPS when the FX could only process the same code at less than 3 FPS.

Of Course Nvidia could recompile really long shaders with Cg for the Nv35 as well. But, it is still limited in many ways. In reality the Nv35 will never be able to handle the Raw instruction count of the R350. Its that simple. Nor would they ever be able to render several hundred instruction long shaders at Full percision.

(im talking Nv30/35 not Nv40)
That's true about the F buffer. My original point was that Nvidia came out way ahead of ATI on pixel shader capability. They're still ahead in precision and texture accesses but behind on total instruction count. NV40 vs. R400 (or whatever) remains to be seen.

As for ATI's recent demo, of course Nvidia's card runs an ATI demo slower. Demos are designed that way. I promise. I've done it. Nvidia often shows demos that run more slowly on ATI cards. Dawn, for example.

This actually gets back to the main issue that Nvidia's and ATI's hardware is so different (more different than Intel vs. AMD, especially in functionality) that critical code sections
will always be hardware-specific, except when game companies don't have the resources to do it. Thus, the only valid way to compare is by comparing speed of equivalent rendering results, which is what games provide and 3DMark doesn't.
ImaginaryFiend is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 06-03-03, 04:29 PM   #285
Hellbinder
 
Hellbinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: CDA
Posts: 1,510
Default

Quote:
Google Search is exactly what I did to find the Nvidia patents that proved my points.

As for the timing of each of Nvidia's inventions and when ATI came out with their version, it's common knowledge, but you can check Tom's Hardware for the history.

Maybe you're not rabid, but given your lack of any evidence (and what I believe to be the wrongness of your position), you appear uninformed.
You are completely 100% full of ****.

when a product was released is not an indicator of who Developed the Technology. It is really really irritating for me to have to supposedly Defend the *Truth* from someone like you who is just making **** up as you go along.

Even though i am completely aware that you looked a couple pattents up. Let me tell you that many patents owned by Nvidia, ATi, Intel, IBM etc etc were aquired becuase they Purchaced the IP from or Purchaced the Company holding the IP.
__________________
Overam Mirage 4700
3.2ghz P4 HT
SIS 748FX Chipset 800mhz FSB
1Gig DDR-400
60Gig 7200RPM HD
Radeon 9600M Turbo 128 (400/250)
Catalyst 4.2
Latest good read. [url]http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTc4LDE=http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTc4LDE=[/url]

Last edited by Hellbinder; 06-03-03 at 04:33 PM.
Hellbinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-03, 04:41 PM   #286
Hellbinder
 
Hellbinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: CDA
Posts: 1,510
Default

Quote:
That's true about the F buffer. My original point was that Nvidia came out way ahead of ATI on pixel shader capability.
Again, when a product is released has nothing to do with who invented the technology.

Radeon had Pixel shader 1.0 at the Time of the GF2. Or were you even aware of that. which by your logic makes ATi the inventors of Pixel shader Technology. Which makes the Radeon always 1 step AHEAD of Nvidia in Pixel shader generation.

But that is not the case. Becuase Pixel shaders, Vertex shaders, Cube maps and nearly all 3D technologies were developed by Groups of people in think tanks, or at Colledges, or at Pure Technology companies. T&L was Fist developed for a retail product By Rendition who now makes Ram for Micron. S3 had T&L designs going long before Nvidia but never introduced them. PowerVR offered Full Hardware Geometry Engine over a year before Nvidia in their ARcade Devision.

The list goes on.

dont you people get that I am not trying to say that it Was ATi over Nvidia here???
__________________
Overam Mirage 4700
3.2ghz P4 HT
SIS 748FX Chipset 800mhz FSB
1Gig DDR-400
60Gig 7200RPM HD
Radeon 9600M Turbo 128 (400/250)
Catalyst 4.2
Latest good read. [url]http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTc4LDE=http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTc4LDE=[/url]
Hellbinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-03, 05:23 PM   #287
Miester_V
Apprentice's Master
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: U.S.A
Posts: 140
Send a message via AIM to Miester_V
Default

FutureMark: One step foward (patch), one GIANT step backwards.

Nvidia: Questionable market strategy at first...Now de-thrones Microsoft as ultimate evil corporation.

I'll be updating my sig soon.
__________________
OS: Win XP Pro
CPU: AMD XP 2400+
Mobo: Epox 8K7a
PSU: Mortec 300w
Memory: Crucial 2100 512MB DDR
VGA: ATI Radeon 9800 Pro Retail
Hard Drive: Maxtor 40GB 7200rpm
DVD ROM: Pioneer 16X
CD-RW: Plextor 16/10/40
Sound Card: Sound Blaster Audigy
Speakers: Boston Acoustics 7800 4.1

------------------------------------------------
It is my DUTY to not purchase any Microsoft products.
Miester_V is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-03, 05:31 PM   #288
Miester_V
Apprentice's Master
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: U.S.A
Posts: 140
Send a message via AIM to Miester_V
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by ChevyBlazerBoy
Yes! Nvidia Rocks!

*cricket* *cricket*

Feels sorry for you. All alone.
__________________
OS: Win XP Pro
CPU: AMD XP 2400+
Mobo: Epox 8K7a
PSU: Mortec 300w
Memory: Crucial 2100 512MB DDR
VGA: ATI Radeon 9800 Pro Retail
Hard Drive: Maxtor 40GB 7200rpm
DVD ROM: Pioneer 16X
CD-RW: Plextor 16/10/40
Sound Card: Sound Blaster Audigy
Speakers: Boston Acoustics 7800 4.1

------------------------------------------------
It is my DUTY to not purchase any Microsoft products.
Miester_V is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
User Response : PR Response to Linus Torvald's Inflammatory Comments Blackcrack NVIDIA Linux 16 06-29-12 04:57 AM
PR Response to Linus Torvald's Inflammatory Comments News Archived News Items 0 06-19-12 12:00 AM
PR Response to Linus Torvald's Inflammatory Comments MikeC NVIDIA Linux 0 06-18-12 10:14 PM
NV30 name poll sancheuz NVIDIA GeForce 7, 8, And 9 Series 72 10-19-05 01:23 AM
Any details on Nvidia's failed NV2 for SEGA? suburbanguy Rumor Mill 1 08-21-02 10:30 PM

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1998 - 2014, nV News.