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Old 06-13-03, 04:49 PM   #13
bwkaz
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Originally posted by SnapIT
Shouldn't that tell you something, and Nvidia, when the OpenSource drivers work, but not their own pre-alpha drivers....
The open source drivers treat the card as simply one big dumping ground for pixels, nothing more.

There are about four or five orders of magnitude of extra complexity on the job that the nVidia-provided drivers have to do (coordinate the GPU), let alone on the code in them. You simply can't make a comparison between them and the XFree-provided ones.
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Old 06-13-03, 06:45 PM   #14
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Originally posted by sammy
I think it would be wise for nvidia for listening all comments, especially the negative ones. Banning one voice don't make a good expression about the company.

If I am not mistaken the reverse engineering is perfectly legal, atleast in my country. So, I wish the best luck to flashback.

Nvidia's position is not so strong as it used to be. Nvidia should better know the reasons why their card is being bough or is not being bought. Reasons simply are: hardware, driver and prize.

The card has to be fast with newest features and it must also be stable. The stability is very important. Same goes true for drivers as well. Drivers must be known simply to work. Nvidia have had all the time to make their driver stable. Failing to do so gives not so good picture. Also the card prizes are quite high. (I know that nvidia is not making the cards directly)

It seems to me that now when their card is not anymore superior by hardware, nvidia have none of the succeeding factors. Ofcource the reputation is one factor, but it's fading real fast.

Actually the card hardware (speed and features) are not so important as one might think at first. The card can be sold if it is stable and people trust it to work well (good reputation). So a good driver is crusial thing.

It is a clear fact, that it would be an competitive edge for nvidia to have an open source drivers. More clearly, it is a big disadvantage them for not having OS drivers (I mean a driver, with a proper support for card features).

Why to choose nvidia card:
- hardware (maybe),
- prize (no, in my oppinion)
- driver (BIG NO).

If the driver was good, then it would make the difference when deciding whether to buy nvidia or not.


Well, I am not here to tell nvidia what to do. I am here only asking, please make my driver work (it has been several months or even a year, since I could restart X without kernel crashing).
I am kind of amazed at your insight, that was unexpected at this forum...

I agree with your post, as it is...

I have been involved in the open source community for more than ten years now, both as a programmer and as a user..

I have seen unsolvable problems (according to some) become solved within a day or two...

And if Nvidia would release an Open Source driver, i would try to solve your problem and contact others, you would not have to wait for long...

Open source does work... thanx for your input... :-)
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Old 06-13-03, 06:50 PM   #15
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Originally posted by bwkaz
The open source drivers treat the card as simply one big dumping ground for pixels, nothing more.

There are about four or five orders of magnitude of extra complexity on the job that the nVidia-provided drivers have to do (coordinate the GPU), let alone on the code in them. You simply can't make a comparison between them and the XFree-provided ones.
I know this, still Nvidia cannot even fix that simple problem, the open community fixed it without specs... so quit rolling your eyes and be glad that at least ONE driver works in 2d apps...

If the drivers were Open Source and the Specs freely available, your driver would not only be better but faster too, and actually be usable in Maya and games...

As it is now, i might as well use the OS driver available as i cannot use the crappy OGL support that comes with the buggy Nvidia driver and at least the 2d is good...

Is that what you call driver support?
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Old 06-13-03, 07:18 PM   #16
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Originally posted by SnapIT
I know this, still Nvidia cannot even fix that simple problem, the open community fixed it without specs... so quit rolling your eyes and be glad that at least ONE driver works in 2d apps...
My nVidia drivers work for EVERYTHING. I've said that before. If they don't work for you (or others here), it's because there's some difference between your system and mine. The drivers are EXACTLY the same.

And the community did NOT fix their driver! The community drivers don't even USE the 3D hardware, OR the GPU! Do you even have a clue how graphics cards work in 3D mode? Or are you just ignoring me when I'm saying these things?

You say you've been in the OSS community for so long -- OK, so what have you done? Link to it. I'll freely admit I haven't done much (aside from the small contributions to a slideshow project one time).

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If the drivers were Open Source and the Specs freely available, your driver would not only be better but faster too, and actually be usable in Maya and games...
Yeah, that's why it took YEARS for Mozilla to get usable. "Open source is not a magic pixie dust" (according to one of the former head honchos at Netscape). Sure, Mozilla's not bad now, but originally, it was so monstrous that not many people would even take the time to become familiar with it -- and so the only contributors were people inside Netscape anyway. It's only recently (years after the open-sourcing) that the browser has become any good. And it is quite good -- it's what I use, after all.

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As it is now, i might as well use the OS driver available as i cannot use the crappy OGL support that comes with the buggy Nvidia driver and at least the 2d is good...
You say crappy, I say you misconfigured something. What doesn't work for you, BTW? You've never even posted that, you just showed up one day and started blasting the drivers because you think you can do better.

Be my guest. In the meantime, stop trolling.
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Old 06-13-03, 07:42 PM   #17
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Originally posted by bwkaz
My nVidia drivers work for EVERYTHING. I've said that before. If they don't work for you (or others here), it's because there's some difference between your system and mine. The drivers are EXACTLY the same.

And the community did NOT fix their driver! The community drivers don't even USE the 3D hardware, OR the GPU! Do you even have a clue how graphics cards work in 3D mode? Or are you just ignoring me when I'm saying these things?

You say you've been in the OSS community for so long -- OK, so what have you done? Link to it. I'll freely admit I haven't done much (aside from the small contributions to a slideshow project one time).

Yeah, that's why it took YEARS for Mozilla to get usable. "Open source is not a magic pixie dust" (according to one of the former head honchos at Netscape). Sure, Mozilla's not bad now, but originally, it was so monstrous that not many people would even take the time to become familiar with it -- and so the only contributors were people inside Netscape anyway. It's only recently (years after the open-sourcing) that the browser has become any good. And it is quite good -- it's what I use, after all.

You say crappy, I say you misconfigured something. What doesn't work for you, BTW? You've never even posted that, you just showed up one day and started blasting the drivers because you think you can do better.

Be my guest. In the meantime, stop trolling.
Ok, Nvidia drivers does not work right for Maya 3D in Linux (slackware with kernel 2.4.20 OR 21 stable) this is a well known fact for anyone who has ever used Maya, the latest drivers (anything above 4.1) has a tendencey to crash OGL apps every now and then, that makes them worthless, have to cold boot to get past that...

I have contributed to the kernel, to Slackware to Phoenix....

I do believe i could do better than this with this driver, not the entire driver perhaps but i could fix my problems and release a fix...

And i haven't posted my problems because all of the options in the conf have been tried, i tend to do that before i ask... and what should i ask? "if you have tried multiple configs with multiple wm's and the system hangs, what do you do"

This isn't just something i invented and post for the fun of it, this is affecting my productivity and is costing me time and money...

And if Nvidia would release their drivers OSS, i would solve them without spending time here...
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Old 06-13-03, 08:53 PM   #18
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Originally posted by SnapIT
I have contributed to the kernel, to Slackware to Phoenix....
I've said before: WHAT have you contribued to the kernel, to Slackware, to Phoenix? You've never answered that simple little question.

And isn't it convenient for you that first, Maya costs money, and second, the personal edition doesn't work in Linux? (only OSX or XP)

No, I don't work for nVidia, so I can't test this stuff without paying buttloads of my own money to do it (you seemed to think in another post that I do -- you said something about "you open the specs and I will" or something; newsflash, I don't have anything to do with the company). But I think the massive number of 3D programs (games) that work on my system is proof enough that nothing's wrong with the drivers -- perhaps something's wrong with your beloved Maya? It's a proprietary program too, amazingly enough.

Anyway, until you can show me what doesn't work (and I can see it not work right here -- to be perfectly honest, at this point I think your Maya story is a lie, especially considering the list of things that didn't work when you first started posting, compared to the list of things that don't work now), you haven't done anything but rant and rave.
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Old 06-13-03, 10:57 PM   #19
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Originally posted by bwkaz
I've said before: WHAT have you contribued to the kernel, to Slackware, to Phoenix? You've never answered that simple little question.

And isn't it convenient for you that first, Maya costs money, and second, the personal edition doesn't work in Linux? (only OSX or XP)

No, I don't work for nVidia, so I can't test this stuff without paying buttloads of my own money to do it (you seemed to think in another post that I do -- you said something about "you open the specs and I will" or something; newsflash, I don't have anything to do with the company). But I think the massive number of 3D programs (games) that work on my system is proof enough that nothing's wrong with the drivers -- perhaps something's wrong with your beloved Maya? It's a proprietary program too, amazingly enough.

Anyway, until you can show me what doesn't work (and I can see it not work right here -- to be perfectly honest, at this point I think your Maya story is a lie, especially considering the list of things that didn't work when you first started posting, compared to the list of things that don't work now), you haven't done anything but rant and rave.
This will be the last time i adress you as you obviously do not grasp what i am trying to say and have problems with anyone who don't praise the drivers from Nvidia... the drivers are supposed to work with the software i use or are you saying that software developers should develop different versions for each driver... that is ridiculous and i am pretty sure even you can understand that...

Yes, Maya does cost money, that is not the point, don't you think that i would love OSS Maya? i would, believe me, i would love that... but a 3D program compared to drivers for a card that i already paid for... come on, man... even you have to be able to understand the difference....

My contribs to the kernel have been a few throughout the years, do you want a complete list over a couple of pages here or will the latest do?

Slackware, take a wild guess... (hint, my name)

Phoenix, except for parts of the gecko engine css support, just a few bug fixes...

What you have to get is that just because the drivers work for *you* on your setup does not mean that there is nothing wrong with them... Drivers should work on *all* setups with *all* software and if they do not, the drivers are flawed, you would expect that from all drivers, and you do...

Things like these are what is hindering Linux in the Desktop arena... If this driver was produced for XP, Nvidia would pull it and apologize...

THINK McFly...
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Old 06-14-03, 08:30 AM   #20
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Originally posted by SnapIT
...you obviously do not grasp what i am trying to say and have problems with anyone who don't praise the drivers from Nvidia...
No, I only have problems with people that think that just because the drivers don't work FOR THEM, that they're automatically crap, and that opensourcing them will automagically fix their problems (see my comments on Mozilla in another thread).

Quote:
the drivers are supposed to work with the software i use or are you saying that software developers should develop different versions for each driver... that is ridiculous and i am pretty sure even you can understand that...
And yet, you can't see how Maya is attempting to use the drivers. So you assume it's not at fault? But the drivers are? I fail to see what the difference is.

Quote:
Yes, Maya does cost money, that is not the point, don't you think that i would love OSS Maya? i would, believe me, i would love that... but a 3D program compared to drivers for a card that i already paid for... come on, man... even you have to be able to understand the difference....
I understand that there is very litttle difference. Your Maya + driver setup doesn't work, and you can't see the source for either piece of software. How do you know that it's the drivers, and not Maya itself? You can't.

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My contribs to the kernel have been a few throughout the years, do you want a complete list over a couple of pages here or will the latest do?
The latest 5 or so would do.

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Slackware, take a wild guess... (hint, my name)
Well seeing as I don't use Slack, hinting at what you've done based on your name isn't actually giving ANY useful information...

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Phoenix, except for parts of the gecko engine css support, just a few bug fixes...
OK...

Quote:
What you have to get is that just because the drivers work for *you* on your setup does not mean that there is nothing wrong with them...
And yet, the drivers that you're using are exactly the same as mine. Mine work, yours don't. Odd, that.

Quote:
Drivers should work on *all* setups with *all* software and if they do not, the drivers are flawed, you would expect that from all drivers, and you do...
I do NOT expect that drivers accommodate software that uses them incorrectly.

I think this is about enough of this for today, I need something else to do...

I'm going to go play some 3D games that (according to you at least) don't work. That ought to be relaxing, if nothing else.
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Old 06-14-03, 10:44 AM   #21
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Originally posted by bwkaz
No, I only have problems with people that think that just because the drivers don't work FOR THEM, that they're automatically crap, and that opensourcing them will automagically fix their problems (see my comments on Mozilla in another thread).

And yet, you can't see how Maya is attempting to use the drivers. So you assume it's not at fault? But the drivers are? I fail to see what the difference is.

I understand that there is very litttle difference. Your Maya + driver setup doesn't work, and you can't see the source for either piece of software. How do you know that it's the drivers, and not Maya itself? You can't.

The latest 5 or so would do.

Well seeing as I don't use Slack, hinting at what you've done based on your name isn't actually giving ANY useful information...

OK...

And yet, the drivers that you're using are exactly the same as mine. Mine work, yours don't. Odd, that.

I do NOT expect that drivers accommodate software that uses them incorrectly.

I think this is about enough of this for today, I need something else to do...

I'm going to go play some 3D games that (according to you at least) don't work. That ought to be relaxing, if nothing else.
You still don't get it, if you are going to write one piece of software for every driver without knowing what the driver code will make it do it will still return an error...

It's like this, if your driver does not work with every piece of software that complies with the standards (OGL in this case) it is pretty much a flawed driver, like a car that only runs on some roads, it is useless...

I consider buying a card without source code to the driver equal to buying a car and only the ones who made it can open the hood, i wouldn't buy that car, would you?

Look, i do understand why you like the driver, but if the driver does not work on my software (which is extremely standardized) setup, the 1200 bucks i spent on my quadro are money that i could have used to buy a considerably cheaper 3DLabs card that runs circles around the quadro when it comes to performance (i bought the quadro for the gaming support, which doesn't work either)...

Give me the damn code and let me fix it and i will be happy...

If you would need the code i created you could have it too, it's a great solution...

When it comes to programmers, look at IBM, they have paid OSS programmers, it ISN'T a problem, the driver is provided without cost anyways...
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Old 06-14-03, 01:44 PM   #22
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Originally posted by SnapIT
It's like this, if your driver does not work with every piece of software that complies with the standards (OGL in this case) it is pretty much a flawed driver, like a car that only runs on some roads, it is useless...
IT IS NOT MY DRIVER!

And it does work with every OpenGL piece of software that I (and numerous others) have ever thrown at it. If it doesn't work for you, then it's either:

(A) because the stuff you're running actually isn't valid (and how can you tell that it is? you can't possibly, for the EXACT same reasons that you can't know whether there are bugs in nVidia's code), or

(B) because your hardware is screwed up.

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I consider buying a card without source code to the driver equal to buying a car and only the ones who made it can open the hood, i wouldn't buy that car, would you?
Yeah, I've heard this argument thousands of times. Software isn't a car, give it a rest. Not that closed-source software is always good, but when there's nothing else available, and it works (which it DOES, for a ton of people), it's good enough.

And if you wouldn't buy this hypothetical car, then why did you buy your video card?

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Look, i do understand why you like the driver, but if the driver does not work on my software (which is extremely standardized)
You can't even tell whether your software is "standardized"! (whatever that means.) Maya's source is closed, just like nVidia's, DUH!

See, every argument that you've leveled against the drivers can just as quickly be turned around against Maya. Yet, you assume that Maya cannot possibly be the problem, even when it's the only thing that doesn't work. I don't understand this.

And I'm not saying I like the driver, just that your reasons for bashing it are completely unfounded.

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setup, the 1200 bucks i spent on my quadro
You managed to spend $1200 on a video card? How? Mine was $150, a year ago. They run about $100 now. Ti4600's at the time were $400, one third the price of your Quadro, and now, they're only $120 or so (and yes, AGP8x is worthless, so the 4600s with that aren't worthy of being counted). The most expensive GFFX'es now are running around $200; the only $1200 Quadros at Pricewatch are the massive QFX 2000's, which have to be overkill for just about everything (you never buy the top of the line product, whether video cards or CPUs; it's never as much, bang-for-the-buck-wise, as a couple steps down).

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are money that i could have used to buy a considerably cheaper 3DLabs card that runs circles around the quadro when it comes to performance (i bought the quadro for the gaming support, which doesn't work either)...
Then why don't you get the 3DLabs, and go away? All games that I have (again, see the list in the other thread, there are 8-12 of them) work on my GF4 4200. And I'm not the only one.

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Give me the damn code and let me fix it and i will be happy...
See above. I CAN'T DO THAT, I don't have the code. I'd like it too, but that doesn't mean I bash the driver.

I think I can do a better job than Microsoft at a small database engine ("replacement" for Access). Does that mean I troll Microsoft messageboards (or newsgroups) saying that Access sucks, because its Jet backend is horribly broken regarding locking, because it's closed, and that I could fix it if I only had the code? No, it means I start working on the replacement, and get it running (which I haven't had time to do, unfortunately, and probably won't unless I can do it at work). And I reverse engineer the file format, if I have to (for conversion purposes or whatever). No, drivers are not database engines, but I'm sure even you can see the parallel I'm trying to draw?
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