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Old 06-13-03, 08:32 PM   #13
SnapIT
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Originally posted by bwkaz
Surprise, surprise, here's SnapIT posting again.

Shut up and do it better yourself, or go away.
Release the specs and i will, THAT is a promise...

I have done this longer than you have been on this earth (more than 10 years) so...

If you ever grow up, maybe even you would understand that you can only use statements like that on Open Source code... i do use that on my code, you don't like it, improve it (you have to share it)... but without specs, it isn't just hard, it is impossible...

Thank god for flashbacks reverse engineering efforts...
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Old 06-13-03, 08:49 PM   #14
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Please name one X driver that works better than it's Windows counterpart? And define "works better" as well? From my experience the NVidia linux drivers work just as well as the Windows ones, with no issues, and also have advanced features not present in the Windows counterparts. Tough to beat.
I never said X drivers, I just said drivers. I have had a much simpler time with many NIC, SCSI, IDE, etc drivers in Linux than in Windows because the drivers are typically better. I can't comment on video drivers too much though because my experience is quite limited.

I'm sure with the widly capable people like SnapIT around though if the specs were released we'd have OSS Linux drivers that rival the Windows ones in a few weeks.

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The ATI open source people have all the details on the hardware, yet the drivers blow. They have horribly lacking 3d, no FSAA, no anisotropic filtering, no accelerated XRender, poor multiple display support... need I go on?
The closed source ATI people have all the details and more and their drivers blow too, coincidence?

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This does not apply to drivers. the benefits would only be realized by NVidia card owners who already bought the card, so its not free of charge. And the quality of the code would not be as good as from the sourc e(NVidia), because no matter what specs I have access to, 1) I don't have 40 hours a week worth of my time to invest in it, and 2) I didn't *DESIGN* the hardware, so I don't know the little quirks and optimizations I can make due to things that aren't really in the specs.
That's backwards. So you're saying the Linux kernel can't be better than Windows because there's noone with 40hrs a week to work on it? Software is software, whether it's running in kernel mode or userland. You either believe OSS can work or it can't, and I believe Linux, Gnome, KDE, etc show it can work. The only thing that makes drivers different is that they require a lot of knowledge about certain hardware, if nVidia won't make that information available the driver writers have to reverse engineer the hardware with poke and hope techniques which is why the nv driver is so featureless compared to the nvidia driver.

And realistically those quirks and optimizations should be in the specs, otherwise what good are the specs?

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Do you understand that i feel cheated, oh, there are drivers for linux, well, they don't WORK, i would say that is pretty critical...
Being pissed that the drivers are closed is one thing, but the drivers they release do work. Spouting off lies just makes you look stupid.

Have you tried contacting nVidia to see if you can get a real answer as to why the drivers are closed? I can guess what they'd say, but ranting on these forums can only do so much.
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Old 06-13-03, 09:02 PM   #15
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Originally posted by Noth
I never said X drivers, I just said drivers. I have had a much simpler time with many NIC, SCSI, IDE, etc drivers in Linux than in Windows because the drivers are typically better. I can't comment on video drivers too much though because my experience is quite limited.

I'm sure with the widly capable people like SnapIT around though if the specs were released we'd have OSS Linux drivers that rival the Windows ones in a few weeks.



The closed source ATI people have all the details and more and their drivers blow too, coincidence?



That's backwards. So you're saying the Linux kernel can't be better than Windows because there's noone with 40hrs a week to work on it? Software is software, whether it's running in kernel mode or userland. You either believe OSS can work or it can't, and I believe Linux, Gnome, KDE, etc show it can work. The only thing that makes drivers different is that they require a lot of knowledge about certain hardware, if nVidia won't make that information available the driver writers have to reverse engineer the hardware with poke and hope techniques which is why the nv driver is so featureless compared to the nvidia driver.

And realistically those quirks and optimizations should be in the specs, otherwise what good are the specs?



Being pissed that the drivers are closed is one thing, but the drivers they release do work. Spouting off lies just makes you look stupid.

Have you tried contacting nVidia to see if you can get a real answer as to why the drivers are closed? I can guess what they'd say, but ranting on these forums can only do so much.
O FFS!!!

They reboot my machine, is that what they are SUPPOSED to do? Ok, if they are supposed to do that then i guess they work as intended...

I have tried EVERYTHING, every single option, every possible setup, recompiled my kernel with patches and configs, upgraded XFree86 with patches, Fluxbox or KDE or Gnome, it does the same thing...

What is it that you do not get, these drivers do NOT work in Maya 3d or OGL on my computer no matter what, the fault lies in the drivers, i would fix it if i could, but i cannot have a look at the code so i can't...

Yes, i have contacted Nvidia through my company, both snail mail and e-mail without any answers... does that help... not much...
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Old 06-13-03, 09:13 PM   #16
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O FFS!!!

They reboot my machine, is that what they are SUPPOSED to do? Ok, if they are supposed to do that then i guess they work as intended...

I have tried EVERYTHING, every single option, every possible setup, recompiled my kernel with patches and configs, upgraded XFree86 with patches, Fluxbox or KDE or Gnome, it does the same thing...

What is it that you do not get, these drivers do NOT work in Maya 3d or OGL on my computer no matter what, the fault lies in the drivers, i would fix it if i could, but i cannot have a look at the code so i can't...
Tried everything? I doubt you tried installing Windows to see if it does simmilar things. Heres a newsflash - maybe its your hardware setup. More than likely in my opinion. I have seen so many people complain about drivers when it was their overheated cards that it is not even funny.

Also, just as another point, NVidia cannot legally open the drivers. It is not even up to them. There is code in the drivers that they license form other companies. You know why you can only play UT2K3 in Linux with an NVidia card? It is because they have S3TC code in them, licensed from another company, and S3TC is patented. Without that code UT2k3 on Linux would be impossible. And that's just one example, I am 100% positive there is other code in NVidia's drivers that is not NVidia's.

None of this matters though, since the current drivers rule. I fully support NVidia's Linux efforts. I am glad there is actually a company INVESTING MONEY in platforms like Linux and FreeBSD, when in reality that are LOSING MONEY. They do not have to be paying their developers to do this. Think they're making any money off the miniscule amount of Linux people buying the cards? Think again. They're probably nowhere near even breaking even with the Linux developer's salaries.

Whiners like you though are probably making NVidia more and more pisse doff every day. Instead of being grateful for all the effort they are putting into Linux, all you do is whine and complain about Ideological issues that really have no bearing on NVidia's bottom line. Would rather have the ATI situation, where they dump piss poor pieces of junk code out there and "let the community handle it"?

NVidia is far more supportive of Linux than ATI, regardless of if the drivers are open or not. And I will continue to let them know this with my pocketbook.
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Old 06-13-03, 09:18 PM   #17
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Honestly, I don't care TOO much about the drivers being open source. If I was a kernel hacker then maybe I would care, but I'm not, so I don't. I just want someone to release some damned drivers that actually work. At least you linux people have some active development going on.

The FreeBSD team seems to think that releasing crap every 7+ months is good enough. This is one case where open spec'd drivers would sure as HELL be a lot better than nvidia's drivers.

The next time I think that upgrading my video card is a priority, I'm definitely going to choose an ATI card. Even if nvidia has the better drivers, ATI is at least making an effort.
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Old 06-13-03, 09:19 PM   #18
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What is it that you do not get, these drivers do NOT work in Maya 3d or OGL on my computer no matter what, the fault lies in the drivers, i would fix it if i could, but i cannot have a look at the code so i can't...
If OGL doesn't work at all then something is seriously wrong. I've used blender and q3radiant (not much though, I'm hardly an artist) and I play Q3 on my box all the time and the nVidia drivers never reboot or hard lock my machine. I even just tried tuxracer to see if it would run and had no problems.
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Old 06-13-03, 10:05 PM   #19
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Ati doesn't released full specs, that's why the opensource drivers sucks with most modern ati-cards and the binary ones from ATI are even worse.

Good open source nvidia-drivers would be nice, but as long as nvidia is producing usable drivers and does some support, I do not complain, instead I am happy that they are supporting their few linux/bsd costumers instead of ignoring them like a lot of other companies or pretending some non existant support.

Have a look into the dri and X mailing archives, for me it doesn't sound very enthusiastic there.

I hope that nvidia will continue their support and releases further driver versions which support newer agp-bridges (like SiS 746) and AGP 3.0.

And hopefully they'll release some drivers when 2.4.6 gets out finally.

Glück Auf,
Volker
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Old 06-13-03, 10:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soulburner
The next time I think that upgrading my video card is a priority, I'm definitely going to choose an ATI card. Even if nvidia has the better drivers, ATI is at least making an effort.
Unless I'm very much mistaken, ATI released one set of drivers once, and then never touched them again after that (they STILL haven't put out anything that definitely works with glibc 2.3 or X 4.3.0).

Unless you mean how they released their specifications? Lots of good that does, when the XFree86 team releases a new version of X every, what, 6 months? I like my cards supported when I get them, thanks, not 6 months later (or more -- there's still no 3D for the 9700).

I used to think the same thing as you seem to (though the drivers wasn't why -- what nVidia did when taking out 3dfx was why). So I got a Radeon 7500 (the best Radeon supported in 3D mode in X at the time, about a year ago, XFree86 4.2.0). It was absolute crap, regardless of which computer I put it in, and regardless of which OS it was running under. Now it is entirely possible that this is because it was a 7500, but I returned it and got a GF4 Ti4200 anyway, because whether or not I can see the source, nVidia's drivers work. See, platitudes are nice, but practicality is much better.

I then ran into issues just before the release of 3123, with gcc 3.2 (I upgraded the system to that compiler in order to get the -march=athlon-xp switch). I kept getting __divdi3()-related errors. Mail to linux-bugs, and the next day, I have a response back -- "yeah, we know there's a problem, it'll be fixed in the next release, coming out any day now". And it was.
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Old 06-13-03, 10:22 PM   #21
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Ati doesn't released full specs, that's why the opensource drivers sucks with most modern ati-cards and the binary ones from ATI are even worse.
Not true, ATI has been releasing full spec'ed out open source drivers ever since the Rage days. It's always been more or a marketing gimmick for ATI though, so that they can say they support open source while putting little to no effort into making their cards functional in Linux.

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And hopefully they'll release some drivers when 2.4.6 gets out finally.
The current drivers already work in the 2.5 series, so the support for 2.6 is already there. NVidia is not dropping support for anything.
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Old 06-13-03, 10:57 PM   #22
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2.5.x works because of some unoffical hacks. That is not 'support' ;o)
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Old 06-14-03, 03:35 AM   #23
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Originally posted by Noth
If OGL doesn't work at all then something is seriously wrong. I've used blender and q3radiant (not much though, I'm hardly an artist) and I play Q3 on my box all the time and the nVidia drivers never reboot or hard lock my machine. I even just tried tuxracer to see if it would run and had no problems.
We could go through this a hundred times, but what is the point, you know, i really don't care how well they work on YOUR setup, they do not work well on MY setup, is that because i use different programs that use different OGL calls, maybe, but still, it's OGL standard calls... One thing you have to learn about drivers is that they need to work on every setup, with all kinds of hardware, unless they do, they are flawed...

I can still play the games and use maya with my old ATI card though...

But i did pay for these Nvidia drivers when i bought the card... and the promise to deliver is pretty much bs AFAIC...

YMMV, but it shouldn't, not with a consistent driver...
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Old 06-14-03, 06:54 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by brunes69
Also, just as another point, NVidia cannot legally open the drivers. It is not even up to them. There is code in the drivers that they license form other companies. You know why you can only play UT2K3 in Linux with an NVidia card? It is because they have S3TC code in them, licensed from another company, and S3TC is patented. Without that code UT2k3 on Linux would be impossible. And that's just one example, I am 100% positive there is other code in NVidia's drivers that is not NVidia's.
UT2K3 no longer requires S3TC to run.

I agree that Nvidia opensourcing their current drivers is unlikely but only because it isn't a priority for Nvidia.(I doubt they would be commited enough to licence their software patents to the world for free and buy any patents they are licencing.... But it's not impossible). An alternative is that they use mixed licences where most of the code is free (as in freedom) with linking exceptions to (optional) unfree code containing s3tc etc. This unfree code would probably be under a restrictive licence, but still provided as source.

The most likely approach is to release specs to allow other people to develop drivers (Nvidia could help further (boards, code, time, money) them get them developed if they felt like it.)
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None of this matters though, since the current drivers rule.
...
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I fully support NVidia's Linux efforts. I am glad there is actually a company INVESTING MONEY in platforms like Linux and FreeBSD,
Money < free code.
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when in reality that are LOSING MONEY. They do not have to be paying their developers to do this. Think they're making any money off the miniscule amount of Linux people buying the cards? Think again. They're probably nowhere near even breaking even with the Linux developer's salaries.
The linux drivers use the same codebase as the windows ones, so the extra cost is not large. There are at least a few thousand linux gamers and a growing number of companies buying linux workstations (e.g. DreamWorks) Presumably Nvidia see linux as a growing potential market.
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Whiners like you though are probably making NVidia more and more pisse doff every day. Instead of being grateful for all the effort they are putting into Linux, all you do is whine and complain about Ideological issues that really have no bearing on NVidia's bottom line. Would rather have the ATI situation, where they dump piss poor pieces of junk code out there and "let the community handle it"?
[/b]
Why should I care about Nvidia's bottom line? On the other hand Nvidia should listen to it's customers. We are a minority of it's customers, but helping us (to get free drivers for whatever reason) requires very little on Nvidia's part (hardware specs etc.) and does not harm Nvidia or the rest of it's customers (present and future), it can only benefit them. (I can even tolerate them only providing hardware details six months after a chip launchs. Better late than never.)
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NVidia is far more supportive of Linux than ATI, regardless of if the drivers are open or not. And I will continue to let them know this with my pocketbook.
Your prioritys are different to mine.
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