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Old 06-20-03, 02:09 PM   #49
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Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Yada-yada-ya...

Solomon, the reason some of us there try and respect ATi when they ask us a favor is because they do us the curteousy of keeping us informed/helping out on the boards/and improving their company so bloody much in the past year.

Rage3D has NOT sold out to ATi anymore than nVnews has sold out to nVidia, they're just showing a bit of professional curteousy to one of ATi's requests. No one is "making" them do anything.

CatalystMaker has and has EARNED a lot of respect in the ATi community, if'n he asks some people to take down an early beta since it ain't indicative of the official release that is coming out Monday than I ain't got no problem with that.

I'm a bloody beta-fan-from-hell, but I'm respecting ATi's wishes on this one. They've been good to the community, (and me in particular!), and I ain't got no problem cutting them some slack on this one.
CatalystMaker is a two faced person, the worse I have ever seen. He condems the leak, but he goes ahead and "tells" someone to use the leaked beta driver because it could fix that persons problem? You can support ATi all you want. They make great hardware. I have no problems with ATi in their hardware department or software department, but when this guy flat out says we released stolen drivers and tries in his all his might to shut the driver down by threatening us with lawyers and then pulls a 180 and tells the guy to download stolen drivers from me or W1zzard or nVchips-FR is flat out ignorant.

And please don't come here and preach about his respect. What he does is a great thing to the community, but his followers are nothing more then puppets that whatever he says is law is a joke. I bet half to all those "beta members" would be singing a different tune if they were not getting free hardware.

I have never seen this in my 4 years of doing file hosting, never! Fricken bandwagon followers is what they are. They first bitched about not having enough drivers. There was no bitching back then when the leaks were out for download, ironically the ones who are bitching are "beta members" and they happened to be "moderators" and "administrators"... Hmmmmm.

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Old 06-20-03, 02:12 PM   #50
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Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Rage3D has NOT sold out to ATi anymore than nVnews has sold out to nVidia, they're just showing a bit of professional curteousy to one of ATi's requests. No one is "making" them do anything.
Run a website for a good amount of time and talk to a variety of webmasters. I can guarantee you that they will comply and never put up anykind of dismay if they know it will stop the flow of hardware. How do you think they get the free hardware? The review samples? The first previews... You think that is just a nice jesture.

Your, no one is "making" them do anything ... is flat out wrong my friend. When you are in this business you see the darkside of webmastering that is never shown on the front pages of websites or revealed to visitors.

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Old 06-20-03, 02:20 PM   #51
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Originally posted by Solomon
Run a website for a good amount of time and talk to a variety of webmasters. I can guarantee you that they will comply and never put up anykind of dismay if they know it will stop the flow of hardware. How do you think they get the free hardware? The review samples? The first previews... You think that is just a nice jesture.

Your, no one is "making" them do anything ... is flat out wrong my friend. When you are in this business you see the darkside of webmastering that is never shown on the front pages of websites or revealed to visitors.
Been there, done that. Don't try and teach your grandpa how to skin a cat.

Quote:
CatalystMaker is a two faced person, the worse I have ever seen. He condems the leak, but he goes ahead and "tells" someone to use the leaked beta driver because it could fix that persons problem?
I have NEVER known CM to lie. He condemed the leak and told you AS A REPRESENTATIVE OF ATI (caps because when he puts on that hat he's sort of bound by his job & job description a bit...not to mention all the legal implications) to pull the leaks down and you threw a hissy-fit. He only recomended that guy to try them AFTER you had spread them all over the net against his wishes.

It was your call to make, I just don't agree with it and I really didn't like the way you talked to/about CM at all yesterday or today. You seem like you're on some form of holy crusade against evil, but ATi ain't a bad guy and you ain't got a white horse.

You got your way Solomon, you posted 'em and I don't think ATi is going to sue you over it...but I think you lost a lot of friends.
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Old 06-20-03, 03:09 PM   #52
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Originally posted by digitalwanderer
You got your way Solomon, you posted 'em and I don't think ATi is going to sue you over it...but I think you lost a lot of friends.
On the contraray I have more visitors now then ever because of the stance I put up. I'm not a corporate suck up. These companies don't do jack for you unless you comply and become their borg.

It's odd that your stance on all of this has changed. You were never singing this tune before. Is it because you got free hardware from ATi and are now going to become a beta member ? Why the change of tune ?

I already re-affirmed to my contact as well as to my visitors. I will post leaks, beta release, because they want it. I do what my visitors want not because a company gives me free hardware and allows me to join their office party.

The leaks will never stop and I'm all for it. It allows me to test out my games to see if they are better or not. Ironically it's o.k. for Catalyst Maker to recommend them to someone on a game, but we can't, because according to him we aren't allowed too! LOL. Then I should tell him he's not allowed to download the driver from our site. Same scenerio.

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Old 06-20-03, 03:21 PM   #53
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Originally posted by Solomon
On the contraray I have more visitors now then ever because of the stance I put up. I'm not a corporate suck up. These companies don't do jack for you unless you comply and become their borg.
I don't agree with the borg bit, and I notice that [t]ardOCP gets an awful lot of hits too...

Quote:
It's odd that your stance on all of this has changed. You were never singing this tune before. Is it because you got free hardware from ATi and are now going to become a beta member ? Why the change of tune ?
No change in my tune, it's the same as it's always been. I'm trying to do what I feel is best for the community as I really feel I'm always trying to do. The community has taught me everything I know and I just want to do something to give back to it, in this case I feel it was in the communities best interests to respect ATi's request on this particular release. I didn't do it because I got free hardware from ATi, I did it because I think I know why they didn't want it leaked so badly and I agree with them on it.

Quote:
I already re-affirmed to my contact as well as to my visitors. I will post leaks, beta release, because they want it. I do what my visitors want not because a company gives me free hardware and allows me to join their office party.
I'm truly glad to hear it, don't change. This isn't about me wanting an invite to any parties, this is about me wanting to see ATi get a chance to clean-up their act in the driver department and to continue to give the excellent driver support they've been giving.

Quote:
The leaks will never stop and I'm all for it. It allows me to test out my games to see if they are better or not.
I bet you're right, but they HAVE signifigantly decreased in the last 6 months and I expect them to continue to decline. A monthly release will help to kill the beta-hunting urge, IMHO.

Quote:
Ironically it's o.k. for Catalyst Maker to recommend them to someone on a game, but we can't, because according to him we aren't allowed too! LOL. Then I should tell him he's not allowed to download the driver from our site. Same scenerio.
No, no it's not. He asked you to take them down before they had spread to the wild, he recomended a customer try them to fix a problem (which I believe you reported that these drivers fix, kudos again) after they were already widely available.

CM ain't an idiot, he knows you can't put the genie back in the bottle. BUT...

...but sometimes you can, if you catch the genie before he knows he's out. That's why they push for cooperation so much in the initial few hours after a leak.

I KNOW you can suppress a leak sometimes, it can be done. But there had better best be a damned good reason for wanting it suppressed if'n I'm gonna give a hand with it. In this particular case, I DID think there was a good reason.

But it's a moot point now, because you felt all good and righteous. Enjoy it, you're right on a number of levels...but I reserve the right to disagree with you based on my own opinions/speculations and I do so in this case.

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Old 06-20-03, 03:33 PM   #54
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Originally posted by digitalwanderer
I don't agree with the borg bit, and I notice that [t]ardOCP gets an awful lot of hits too...


No change in my tune, it's the same as it's always been. I'm trying to do what I feel is best for the community as I really feel I'm always trying to do. The community has taught me everything I know and I just want to do something to give back to it, in this case I feel it was in the communities best interests to respect ATi's request on this particular release. I didn't do it because I got free hardware from ATi, I did it because I think I know why they didn't want it leaked so badly and I agree with them on it.


I'm truly glad to hear it, don't change. This isn't about me wanting an invite to any parties, this is about me wanting to see ATi get a chance to clean-up their act in the driver department and to continue to give the excellent driver support they've been giving.


I bet you're right, but they HAVE signifigantly decreased in the last 6 months and I expect them to continue to decline. A monthly release will help to kill the beta-hunting urge, IMHO.


No, no it's not. He asked you to take them down before they had spread to the wild, he recomended a customer try them to fix a problem (which I believe you reported that these drivers fix, kudos again) after they were already widely available.

CM ain't an idiot, he knows you can't put the genie back in the bottle. BUT...

...but sometimes you can, if you catch the genie before he knows he's out. That's why they push for cooperation so much in the initial few hours after a leak.

I KNOW you can suppress a leak sometimes, it can be done. But there had better best be a damned good reason for wanting it suppressed if'n I'm gonna give a hand with it. In this particular case, I DID think there was a good reason.

But it's a moot point now, because you felt all good and righteous. Enjoy it, you're right on a number of levels...but I reserve the right to disagree with you based on my own opinions/speculations and I do so in this case.

Regards,
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That's cool. I never take anything at a personal level. Once you start taking this stuff seriously it just makes you all crazy and stuff.

Thanks for the tidbit regarding the cooperation. I was wondering why he kept pushing that on W1zzard and I. It's good to know why he did that. Thanks for the word on that.

I don't think CM is an idiot, I do believe he contradicts himself a lot in the forums. That's what I see out of him anyways. He kept condoning people to just flat out wait and then finally he's like, "Yeah use them and see if it helps out ya that's great".

See that's the "ultimate goal" in leaking beta drivers. Is to help the individual. Is it my fault that they got leak? No it isn't... Did I help get the word out about the leak. Yes I did as I feel that's what I should give to my visitors.

I've been doing this for 4 years. I have never had someone say, "Damn! Those drivers corrupted my computer". My viewer base is intelligent and knows what the word "beta" means. CM came off like I'm some idiot and my viewers are stupid and will just complain to ATi because they might screw up your computer.

We all have disagreed or agreed at some point. On this level I don't care about ATi nor nVidia as a company as I shouldn't need too. I'm just here for folks that want to use the latest. No if's and's or but's. :-)

Nothing is personal. Unless you flat out call me stupid, loser, maxi zone dweebe, Butt Face, etc... Hehehehe.

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Old 06-20-03, 03:57 PM   #55
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Originally posted by Solomon
I have never had someone say, "Damn! Those drivers corrupted my computer". My viewer base is intelligent and knows what the word "beta" means. CM came off like I'm some idiot and my viewers are stupid and will just complain to ATi because they might screw up your computer.
In fairness to CM, ATi HAS had a lot of that before and that's one of the big reasons they used to be such pricks about it a few years back. They got tired of people tying up their support folks with questions/problems about beta drivers. I know it ain't something you might have seen, but imagine all the noobies out there who try something and run to ATi to cry about it.

I'm not AGREEING with them, but I can at least see where they're coming from.
Quote:
Nothing is personal. Unless you flat out call me stupid, loser, maxi zone dweebe, Butt Face, etc... Hehehehe.
C'mon, you know I'm much more creative/original than that...uhm, no....I mean; C'mon, you know I'm all kindler & gentler now!
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Old 06-22-03, 03:18 AM   #56
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Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Been there, done that. Don't try and teach your grandpa how to skin a cat.


I have NEVER known CM to lie. He condemed the leak and told you AS A REPRESENTATIVE OF ATI (caps because when he puts on that hat he's sort of bound by his job & job description a bit...not to mention all the legal implications) to pull the leaks down and you threw a hissy-fit. He only recomended that guy to try them AFTER you had spread them all over the net against his wishes.

It was your call to make, I just don't agree with it and I really didn't like the way you talked to/about CM at all yesterday or today. You seem like you're on some form of holy crusade against evil, but ATi ain't a bad guy and you ain't got a white horse.

You got your way Solomon, you posted 'em and I don't think ATi is going to sue you over it...but I think you lost a lot of friends.

Personally I completely agree With Solomon's position on Catalyst Maker. That guy herds you all around like trained sheep. He lies to you, He misleads you and he does it in the name of PR.

When Users asked for Digital Vibrance, He told us that it was just a marketing hack already available in ATI Drivers,

It was "proven" that he was wrong because you can't use ATI drivers without changing shades of grey.


He has lied to you guys about Quality drivers and "playing by the rules" As he so likes to call them. When we all know that he's not doing anything of that sort in his driver codes. When we all know that he is not above changing the way code is dealt.


What I find amusing is ATI's Pixel Shader cheat was in the 3dmark2001 before Nvidia's cheat, Later with the Det 40.x series. Meaning ATIs Shaders for that game test were never realistic upon release of that card, Yet Nvidia is the one that forces ATi to cheat?

Catalyst Maker has led us With his 2 faced actions regarding the leaked drivers. He says one thing, then Oks another, I Have no problem with a man having an opinion or position I don't agree with.

What I don't like is someone cannot stick to his ropes regarding that issue. In This game, Cat make came out with double standards.


Just because this guy visits your community does not make him anymore "honest" than a big bad Nvidia spokes person. Or does it make his comments anymore credible. The guy has a friendly relationship with users at rage3d, Thats fine, But that doesn't mean he's not herding you guys around with false information.
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Old 06-22-03, 03:42 AM   #57
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Originally posted by ChrisRay
Personally I completely agree With Solomon's position on Catalyst Maker. That guy herds you all around like trained sheep. He lies to you, He misleads you and he does it in the name of PR.

When Users asked for Digital Vibrance, He told us that it was just a marketing hack already available in ATI Drivers,

It was "proven" that he was wrong because you can't use ATI drivers without changing shades of grey.


He has lied to you guys about Quality drivers and "playing by the rules" As he so likes to call them. When we all know that he's not doing anything of that sort in his driver codes. When we all know that he is not above changing the way code is dealt.


What I find amusing is ATI's Pixel Shader cheat was in the 3dmark2001 before Nvidia's cheat, Later with the Det 40.x series. Meaning ATIs Shaders for that game test were never realistic upon release of that card, Yet Nvidia is the one that forces ATi to cheat?

Catalyst Maker has led us With his 2 faced actions regarding the leaked drivers. He says one thing, then Oks another, I Have no problem with a man having an opinion or position I don't agree with.

What I don't like is someone cannot stick to his ropes regarding that issue. In This game, Cat make came out with double standards.


Just because this guy visits your community does not make him anymore "honest" than a big bad Nvidia spokes person. Or does it make his comments anymore credible. The guy has a friendly relationship with users at rage3d, Thats fine, But that doesn't mean he's not herding you guys around with false information.
actually CM has been very upfront and accesible..

if you actually read through the digital vibrance thread... CM initially stated he didn't think DV was more than a marketing gimmick but gradually through the thread he was more and more intrigued and eventually stated that he would look into the 'feature' and see what could be done.. no promises mind.. but he didnt just dismiss it as you point out chris... perhaps you would like to go through the whole thread again... just post it so people here can see exactly what you are talking about and what CM wrote as well

whether or not there is false information being posted... it is subjective but thus far what CM has said he will deliver... he has for the most part lived up to his end of the bargain with information and bug fixes and what not...

personally I am not sure with this whole 'cat 3.5 but not quite cat 3.5' business... there are many reasons both parties are correct but I can also see why ati would be upset about a leaked driver set that eventually gets posted as LEAKED CAT 3.5 DRIVERS blah blah blah...

perhaps the situation would have been different had the drivers been posted and listed under a different heading... perhaps CAT 3.x drivers released blah blah blah...

I have respect for solomon due to the nature of his posts... I Don;t personally agree with him on some topics and POV's but he is entitled to his opinions and he does have more knowhow than me in many aspects...

I dont agree with the way solomon handled this situation but I don't think CM or the ati staff are blameless either...

just wish the resolution could have been more cordial...

however nothing that I have read or seen the last serveral months appears to corroborate the character assisination you are putting forth chris... Terry may not be the nicest or most ethical guy in the world... but I have yet to see any evidence that supports your claims of a 2-faced liar/hypocrite...
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Old 06-22-03, 03:51 AM   #58
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What I find amusing is ATI's Pixel Shader cheat was in the 3dmark2001 before Nvidia's cheat, Later with the Det 40.x series. Meaning ATIs Shaders for that game test were never realistic upon release of that card, Yet Nvidia is the one that forces ATi to cheat?
Do we actually know in what Catalyst driver 3dmark2001 GT4 optimizations first appeared in? I was not aware of that.
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Old 06-22-03, 04:18 AM   #59
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Do we actually know in what Catalyst driver 3dmark2001 GT4 optimizations first appeared in? I was not aware of that.

The performance numbers in that tests have not changed since the 9700's release. "However" SO we can only assume these optimisations have always been there

SOme early 8500 drivers Showed horrible game performance in Game test 4, I am wondering if the 8500 has similar optimisations. Because ATI claimed the original test was not fair because it did not emphasise their new technology


I read this before these cheats were found, but didn't think much of it.


But now I must admit. I find this "very" curious


Quote:
Radeon 8500 is far behind the GeForce3-competition in this DX8 benchmark. ATi says that this behavior is due to the pure DX8-optimization of 'Nature'. MadOnion is supposedly working on a DX8.1 version, which will show Radeon 8500 in a much better light. Let's wait and see.

http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic...radeon-04.html


What do you think stealthhawk? but it looks like a cigar is a cigar in this case, Nature was never meant to be a Pixel Shader 1.4 Test. Rather a 1.0 Test . As the "only" Changes to 3dmark was the advanced Pixel Shader test. Nature was "never" changed
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Old 06-22-03, 05:04 AM   #60
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actually CM has been very upfront and accesible..

if you actually read through the digital vibrance thread... CM initially stated he didn't think DV was more than a marketing gimmick but gradually through the thread he was more and more intrigued and eventually stated that he would look into the 'feature' and see what could be done.. no promises mind.. but he didnt just dismiss it as you point out chris... perhaps you would like to go through the whole thread again... just post it so people here can see exactly what you are talking about and what CM wrote as well

I completely disagree, And We "have" gone through the whole thread again, Catalyst Maker "had" been dismissing it. Catalyst maker "Had" led ATI users to believe that they're drivers were already capable of it.

Why do you think all the users completely and totally believe the fact that "ATI drivers were already capable of it"

Well. You guessed it. Catalyst maker told them they were, You are referring to a single thread when that was his attitude for the longest time.

There's a thread where I posted it. He tries to push of the issue by asking us "Do you know what it does?"

You are referring to this one thread, I am referring to MULTIPLE threads prior to that where CAT Maker has dismissed it as a marketing hack and already doable in drivers, Which very much explains why so many people have stated it's already doable in ATI drivers.

I mean if you don't know. You don't know. Terry only reacts when he's in the spotlight. Which he acted accordingly "We will look into it" In that thread

Quote:
however nothing that I have read or seen the last serveral months appears to corroborate the character assisination you are putting forth chris... Terry may not be the nicest or most ethical guy in the world... but I have yet to see any evidence that supports your claims of a 2-faced liar/hypocrite...
Read my above post. Read Just further indication that he is BSing us along the way, I mean come on, When is a cigar a cigar? I don't trust him. You shouldn't trust him either. All he wants, And his company wants. Is for you to buy their products.

Understanding this "distinction" will make you alot more objective about things. Its no different than what Nvidia PR spokes people do. But It's a "lot" easier to filter out his "crap" as I would call it. By the simple fact he posts a lot.
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