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Old 07-24-09, 01:24 AM   #25
pakotlar
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Default Re: Why DirectX 11 will save the video card industry and why you don't care

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Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
MS is in their normal 'odd number' cycle. DX7 & DX9 were good. DX8 and DX10 basically sucked. DX11 should be good if history holds true.

Win 7 should be another odd-number winner.
dx10 did suck, that's true. dx11 will hopefully benefit next gen aka 2012 game development. not before.
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Old 07-24-09, 01:31 AM   #26
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Default Re: Why DirectX 11 will save the video card industry and why you don't care

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You're wrong, and here's a very good example:







And yes, those are ingame, no fake screens or photoshop. The scene is rendered in realtime using Cryengine2
man, why do you suckers just keep believing this sh1t? You see a couple of screen shots and cream your pants, but when the game comes out it looks nothing like you thought it would. Repeat x 10.

when will you learn???
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Old 07-24-09, 02:04 AM   #27
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Default Re: Why DirectX 11 will save the video card industry and why you don't care

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Those Blade Runner screens are proof enough we need to keep moving forward and making games look better, if you ask me. Nothing on Xbox looks like that, or anywhere near that... bring on the next generation I say.
I guess only time will tell... but I do think that things will probably slow down. Longer GPU cycles will probably be the trend as developers use older, trusted tech to do their games and save money in the long run. The one variable that hasn't been considered in this thread yet are the simple costs to develop new graphical features for developers compared to using existing technology to ensure their product gets out the door more quickly. With the current economy, it may be tough to convince investors that you should be given 3-5 years plus millions upon millions of dollars to create a better water effect.

Granted I'm oversimplifying, but I do think that all cycles, including the current generation consoles, will probably stretch out longer than we've seen in a long time.
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Old 07-24-09, 07:17 AM   #28
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Default Re: Why DirectX 11 will save the video card industry and why you don't care

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ugh really? why? why 5fps? you pulled that out of your bum, friend. that scene is fully playable. shaders and polygonal budget are nothing special. and it is a fixed scene. check developers, they said around 20fps with mid range hardware (AFAIR...check up, but it is certainly playable).
One god damn scene heavily opimised, thats hardly a playable game now is it? Aloooot of work went into that one scene.



On another side note, ive just noticed that the two comparason pictures of dx10 and dx11 are total bull****.

The dx10 picture comes from Crysis and the DX11 picture is a prerendered work of art, rendered in Mental Ray taken from someones portfolio on CGTalk.
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Old 07-24-09, 08:45 AM   #29
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Default Re: Why DirectX 11 will save the video card industry and why you don't care

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On another side note, ive just noticed that the two comparason pictures of dx10 and dx11 are total bull****.

The dx10 picture comes from Crysis and the DX11 picture is a prerendered work of art, rendered in Mental Ray taken from someones portfolio on CGTalk.
There hasn't been single dx11 comparison that has real image, all of them use some image from cgtalk challenges or other images.
Same thing is with all those DX vs OpenGL images floating around, somehow people do not understand that opengl isn't the API they use to actually render those images.

There are some definite advantages on using SM5 and compute shaders properly and I do hope that we will see some proper examples soon.
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Old 07-24-09, 09:40 AM   #30
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Default Re: Why DirectX 11 will save the video card industry and why you don't care

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One god damn scene heavily opimised, thats hardly a playable game now is it? Aloooot of work went into that one scene.



On another side note, ive just noticed that the two comparason pictures of dx10 and dx11 are total bull****.

The dx10 picture comes from Crysis and the DX11 picture is a prerendered work of art, rendered in Mental Ray taken from someones portfolio on CGTalk.
ITS THE ONLY SCENE THEY MADE! It was for a competition. And it wasn't at all optimised for real time rendering. Christ man, arguing with people on the internet makes you crazy.

You said that scene wasn't playable. It's nothing special. That is what current age graphics can look like. Why don't they? Proliferation of low end hardware and consoles.

And yeah, where is the DX11 stuff that's prerendered? Everything I've seen of DX11 thus far, at GDC09 is real time.
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Old 07-24-09, 09:56 AM   #31
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Default Re: Why DirectX 11 will save the video card industry and why you don't care

I don't think that the biggest hurdle to that Blade Runner scene is so much the actual technology as content development time and even memory limitations. I've noticed Crysis under DX9 running dangerously close to the 32-bit limit whereas it's something that can be worked around by using DX10, dropping memory usage down to just over a gigabyte. It's kind of hard to judge the above scene without seeing it running in real-time (jpeg compression can hide a lot of blemishes) but I don't think it's too far off.

On a side note, DX10 has gotten far too much unfair bad press to be salvaged now while the vast majority of it is unfounded. Anyone expecting a ~40% drop in memory usage to come without a hitch is basically missing the point. Shader models specs are relatively insignificant in comparison since it's likely to be years until the hardware is fast enough, and the knowledge available, to use it to it's full extent. Focusing on DX specification is mostly beside the point as expecting immediate visual differences because of a new DX version is akin to expecting the same from 64-bit computing.
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Old 07-24-09, 11:27 AM   #32
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Default Re: Why DirectX 11 will save the video card industry and why you don't care

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I don't think it has anything to do with consoles or PCs, it has to do with diminishing returns. Years ago when developers added different effects like volumetric lighting, real-time shadows, etc... it made a huge difference in what you saw visually. Now, as stated above, we're having difficulty even seeing the difference between a DX9 and DX10 rendered game.

So basically, developers can try to push that envelope and spend weeks/years making an engine that can render the world to perfection, but the fact that the games today are already so close, the return on that work isn't really there. Games all look great today, and they will look great tomorrow - they may not look (or need to look) that drastically different.

Additionally, there's always the famous 'uncanny valley' we have to worry about. Games look good today, but they look animated - the closer they get to the 'real world' the more they'll look fake to us, and that will make games worse rather than better.
You and I are thinking along very much the same lines. The "big" modern graphical advances rarely have a huge effect on the look of a game. A whole bunch of them combined can make something mindblowing, but a huge amount of work has to go into a game to be able to do that, and even then the average person is probably not going to be able to tell you exactly why it looks better. Graphical improvements today are subtle, but they're as hard or harder to make than they were ten years ago.

I'm not sure that games have even reached the uncanny valley yet, although movies are stuck right in the middle of it (I'm thinking of Beowulf where some things looked so incredible, but then someone would just walk across the room and it would look so wrong that it totally broke the illusion). It will be interesting to see where we are in ten years because I would say that games today probably look as good as movie CG of ten years ago, but now that we're starting to run into physical limitations in processor design I'm not entirely sure we'll be able to keep that pace up.
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Old 07-24-09, 12:35 PM   #33
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Default Re: Why DirectX 11 will save the video card industry and why you don't care

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Originally Posted by Kaguya View Post
I guess only time will tell... but I do think that things will probably slow down. Longer GPU cycles will probably be the trend as developers use older, trusted tech to do their games and save money in the long run. The one variable that hasn't been considered in this thread yet are the simple costs to develop new graphical features for developers compared to using existing technology to ensure their product gets out the door more quickly. With the current economy, it may be tough to convince investors that you should be given 3-5 years plus millions upon millions of dollars to create a better water effect.

Granted I'm oversimplifying, but I do think that all cycles, including the current generation consoles, will probably stretch out longer than we've seen in a long time.
Oh I completely agree with that, I was just saying I personally would like to keep moving forward... if I'm a console gamer then I want better looking games and true 1080p support... if I'm a PC gamer I want console games to have all that so we actually get it as well.
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Old 07-24-09, 01:55 PM   #34
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Default Re: Why DirectX 11 will save the video card industry and why you don't care

DX10 is great, it's just half the gaming population didn't want vista so it was scuppered from the get go.

****ty integrated/low end gpu's have got to go, i don't know why these even exist, they're of no use to anybody. They're not even that cheap either.

If the chip companies want to keep selling their silicon, they need software to back it up, either form new dev houses or start money hatting publishers. MS are clearly not interested anymore.
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Old 07-24-09, 07:12 PM   #35
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Default Re: Why DirectX 11 will save the video card industry and why you don't care

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Those screens were rendered in engine, yes, but you couldn't play that sort of graphical quality at any sort of frame rate, hell you'd be lucky to get 5fps.

On a side note - the amount of effort needed to get that level of detail and that level of attention to detail is collosal, and its more than game developers are prepaired to do if you want any sort of large scale games (i'm talking morrowing, oblivion scale).

Large games with handcrafted detail of that level is impossible, you'd need a task force of more than a thousand artists, this is the true edge of gaming technology and its the artists which are holding everything back.
Hm.. with a Quad-SLI setup and some core i7 it wouldn't be too much of a problem, it's all a matter of money and sense of details and skills in mapping. Making an smaller city with this quality aint impossible but would take a year, maybe more. But the final product running on an Quad-SLI setup would do it and look astonishing, that's good enough for me, and sure on par with CGI quality.

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Originally Posted by NarcissistZero View Post
Those Blade Runner screens are proof enough we need to keep moving forward and making games look better, if you ask me. Nothing on Xbox looks like that, or anywhere near that... bring on the next generation I say.
agreed!

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man, why do you suckers just keep believing this sh1t? You see a couple of screen shots and cream your pants, but when the game comes out it looks nothing like you thought it would. Repeat x 10.

when will you learn???
What are you talking about? Crysis looked BETTER than i thought it would before it came out. Just fire up HP's Vulcano or GTLi's One day challange map and force some 2x or 3x SSAA via nHancer and you'll be blown away, never thought crysis would look this good, But if only hardware were fast enough, like maybe 3 times faster then the GTX295 it would be no big deal.
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Old 07-25-09, 11:02 PM   #36
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Default Re: Why DirectX 11 will save the video card industry and why you don't care

The biggest problem is too much focus on graphics that only a few can run, while the game itself is lacking. Crysis may be great looking, but it's hardly a great game. There's nothing new there.

Companies are taking a step backward. They are making games that run well for everyone now. Games like WoW kinda started it. Look at Quake Live and the new Battlefield game and FreeRealms by SOE (free MMO). All are aimed at the masses and that's what's selling.

Even Blizzard's old games are making top 10 lists still. People want fun games, only a small portion of people demand Crysis looking titles at 1920x1200 16AA AF at 60fps. :\
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