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Old 08-06-09, 09:24 PM   #1
jAkUp
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Exclamation New Rage "Virtual Texturing" Screenies

Check it out!
http://www.shacknews.com/screenshots...2539#img138796

Also some techie details on the engine:
http://s09.idav.ucdavis.edu/talks/05...Challenges.pdf
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Old 08-06-09, 09:59 PM   #2
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Default Re: New Rage "Virtual Texturing" Screenies

How on earth with the little video memory will the 360 and PS3 handle this game? Low res blur the crap out of everything?
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Old 08-06-09, 10:02 PM   #3
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Default Re: New Rage "Virtual Texturing" Screenies

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Originally Posted by Destroy View Post
How on earth with the little video memory will the 360 and PS3 handle this game? Low res blur the crap out of everything?
Heavy streaming. From what I understand, virtual texturing is basically a way of refering game space to texture addreses not yet held in memory. PC virtual texturing would be similar except the textures would probably be held in main memory instead of local GPU memory.
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Old 08-06-09, 10:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: New Rage "Virtual Texturing" Screenies

Wonder how it would look compared to Crysis Warhead. By then we should be expecting C2 nearby.
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Old 08-06-09, 10:20 PM   #5
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Default Re: New Rage "Virtual Texturing" Screenies

I want to see it in action.
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Old 08-06-09, 10:41 PM   #6
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Default Re: New Rage "Virtual Texturing" Screenies

Looking pretty good! esp this one:

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Old 08-06-09, 10:49 PM   #7
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Default Re: New Rage "Virtual Texturing" Screenies

The sky on that screenshot looks amazing.
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Old 08-06-09, 10:52 PM   #8
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Default Re: New Rage "Virtual Texturing" Screenies

The screen shots in their original size makes the game look bland. I can see how they achieved 60 fps. The downsampled screen shots make the game look sharp and the sky look real, but in the original size the game looks somewhat muddy and the sky is actually 2D. ID needs to add more polygons to the mountains, they are too blocky.






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Old 08-06-09, 10:59 PM   #9
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Default Re: New Rage "Virtual Texturing" Screenies

Looks impressive... maybe not Crysis level impressive, or even Farcry 2 level impressive, but damn impressive none-the-less.
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Old 08-06-09, 11:00 PM   #10
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Default Re: New Rage "Virtual Texturing" Screenies

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Originally Posted by Destroy View Post
How on earth with the little video memory will the 360 and PS3 handle this game? Low res blur the crap out of everything?
Heavy streaming. From what I understand, virtual texturing is basically a way of refering game space to texture addreses not yet held in memory. PC virtual texturing would be similar except the textures would probably be held in main memory instead of local GPU memory.

Tech 5 seems to build a quad tree for its massive texture, and virtualizes it. When the camera comes upon it in game world, the system streams and loads only those LOD's of textures it needs. It grades 4 LOD's based on view distance, and dynamically loads them in. So theoretically you get very little noticeable resolution change between gradations, but keep memory usage stable in each scene.

So you would move between rendering say a 64*64 grid of int8 256^2 k textures to 8*8 grid of 2048^2 k textures (which would fit into PS3 main ram with DXT1 compression, since most textures wouldn't need an alpha), and have 2 other steppings, say 32^2 grid of 512^2 k squared textures and a 16^2 grid of 1024^2 k textures. I doubt you would notice much of a transition between small 1024k textures and 2048k ones. Remember that the combined texture would still be 16,384*16,384 large, which is far larger than any texture in Crysis for instance.

In ID tech 5 however, I belive they are using up to 131.072*131,072 texture sizes, which would work if you scale all the grids down to the highest grid density being 16*16. However, the "virtual texturing" bit acutally complicates things. [Confused, Read Siggraph Paper Said 128,000^2...how does this fit with base 2] The "Megatexture" is effectively a 128,000k*128,000k texture, with virtual addresses for each object on the screen. It achieves efficiency by using an intelligent dynamic LOD system to regulate memory usage. So instead of creating textures that would either have to be streamed in, or [most likely] having to choose a whole lot of much lower res textures which look blurry from closer distances, you create one very high resolution asset, and make sure that your system creates a sparse hierarchy of lower-quality assets, splits up each portion of the megatexture into an address, assigns an address to each object, and then based on perspective blends one of 4 LOD's.

So if you've been able to follow this, you must see why Sparse Voxel Octrees are very direct extensions of this. It is quite literally the same principle, except instead of building a "Megatexture" in 2d space, you crate one in 3d virtual space, so you just have a whole lot more virtual addresses. Then you instruct the system to consider not only depth when determining which portion of the octee is loaded in, you ask it to consider a 2nd vector, to make sure that you are loading bits of this "megavoxel" model in reaction to rotation as well. However, with regards to the latter, I'm not sure if a simple normal map is good enough for both. Because depth, with relation to the camera changes upon rotation of X->Y just like it does upon distance change upon Z vector.

Carmack is an absolute genius. I can't even begin to imagine how he could program a system which could address and dynamically compute LODS for virtual textures created from a number of 700MB textures for every object in the scene, in under 16ms.

The above is all self-learned (I'm not a programmer, cs major, or engineering major) so it may contain some mistakes. But this is the impression I got from reading this Siggraph Paper.

By the way, based on this paper, it seems that they use a maximum of 1024 pages, with 4 texels per page, and that's IT. So can be split up any way you want.

SUMMATION:
However, the idea is really simple to sum up: 1) Create a "virtual" unique texture for every polygonal asset in the game using one HUGE texture composed of all the images you need. 2) Give each image its own "virtual" address, and "texture" each model using the appropriate addresses. 3) Furthermore, set up a system which grades depth, aka how far camera is from the model, by one of 4 values. 4) Set up an ordered grid sampling system, basically 4x OG MSAA except for textures, for blending lod transitions (4 because you have 4 LOD values). 5) VOILA! MAKE SURE TO GET THIS DONE IN UNDER 16ms.

By the way it seems the fact that it is a Quad-Tree, limits LOD transitions to 4 (although in effect 16 LOD transitions due to blending with your immediate neighbors, which also have one of 4 LODs), limits anisotropic filtering to 4x. Similarly we can expect Sparse Voxel Octree voxel models to use 8x transition sampling (8*8*8, 8 neighbors on a side), be limited to 1024 effective LOD's due to 8^3 * 8 LOD depth grades

Edit: Just as an aside, PS3's NUMA scheme is really well suited for this, because RSX reads from Cell Memory just as fast as it does from local memory.

EDIT2: Just thinking about this a bit more: Megatexture's biggest advantage isn't for the end user. It is more of a convenience to the artist, as it gives them huge control over how they address each object in the game. For the end user the benefits are really limited, because quite soon memory will outpace the useful resolution limits of UV texture mapping.
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Old 08-06-09, 11:01 PM   #11
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Default Re: New Rage "Virtual Texturing" Screenies

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Looks impressive... maybe not Crysis level impressive, or even Farcry 2 level impressive, but damn impressive none-the-less.
Looks about Far Cry 2 level of impressive, however I like what I'm seeing better than that. Crysis is tough to touch because of its SSAO and indirect lighting algorithms.
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Old 08-06-09, 11:03 PM   #12
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Default Re: New Rage "Virtual Texturing" Screenies

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Originally Posted by NarcissistZero View Post
Looks impressive... maybe not Crysis level impressive, or even Farcry 2 level impressive, but damn impressive none-the-less.
IMO It looks better than FC2, but still cant compete with Crysis ... (as far as i've seen from these screenshots).
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