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Old 01-29-10, 06:57 PM   #193
Slytat
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Default Re: 5870/5970 vs. GF100 (Fermi)

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Originally Posted by shadow001 View Post
OEM contracts pay the bills,as they order the highest volumes of cards from both ATI and Nvidia,so WHQL matters.
Nope, not to the end user which is what we are talking about here.

As I told you, I run on non WHQL drivers more often than not. The fact is that Nvidia are far better at providing multi GPU support etc for new games in a timely fashion.

Sorry.
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Old 01-29-10, 07:03 PM   #194
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Default Re: 5870/5970 vs. GF100 (Fermi)

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Like WHQL is important....

What matters is bug fixing and game support for AA and Multi-GPU. I really prefer the nV way here. They usually have a driver ready before or on the game's release day. Sometimes even for pre-release versions (demos, betas). That's great support. It doesn't matter if it's beta or final... support is there and it works.

ATI's driver update schedule is simply too slow and not flexible enough. Hot Fix drivers are usually out too late and might even break some other stuff that worked before with the normal version.
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Old 01-29-10, 07:23 PM   #195
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Default Re: 5870/5970 vs. GF100 (Fermi)

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Nope no argument about ATI being better at all,but rather being out first,having no competition on the market,selling a lot of cards in the process and making tons of money while they're at it....Basically,Nvidia's worst nightmare has and is continuing to happen right before our eyes.


For all we know,by the time Fermi is actually available in any sort of decent volumes,they'll have to face refreshed versions of the HD5870 and HD5970 cards,not the current ones,as they're old news by then....


The tech industry is brutal when your product is really late,just like when ATI was really late with their original R600 cards,which were 6+ months late,used too much power and ran hot, and didn't perform as good as was expected,and so far,apart from the actual performance numbers of fermi,which of course are still unknown,it's following the same path as the R600 did back in the day.


Just something to think about...
I will have to disagree. No way that ATI makes more money then nvidia selling graphics cards. Sorry but nvidia has been doing this a long time, and if you honestly think nvidia is just in the pc market here, you are sadly mistaking. They make bank off of a lot of things. Their names are on big titles, they are even expanding into cars now. GPS, Phones, Consoles... The list just continues to grow. nvidia use to have an awesome sound board to. The nforce2 sound would out do a PCI Audigy Card back in the day. Their chipsets have been simply awesome.

SLI "enhanced memory". I mean they have their name on everything literally. ATI has just as of recent actually started to jump back up, and it just so happens they released their card first... If nvidia was that worried, they'd of released fermi already. However they are making damn sure all the bugs are worked out.
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Old 01-29-10, 08:44 PM   #196
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Default Re: 5870/5970 vs. GF100 (Fermi)

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You are dealing in baseless speculation.

For all we know by the time Fermi shows up, there'll be time travelling monkeys raiding 7/11s with cricket bats.

Seriously, that's why I said you can't help yourself and why as much as you keep telling me you are not biased, you very clearly are.

If Fermi were to be a substandard product, then I would agree that Nvidia had definitively lost this round. The point (that I suspect you'll refuse to concede no matter what happens) is that if Fermi is as fast as has been hinted at and priced competitively, all will be forgiven and your "devoted" ATI users will be selling/ditching their 5xxx series cards in droves.

How exactly is it baseless?...Let's review the facts shall we?

ATI:

1:They have their cards out,starting with the HD5870 in late september.
2:Yeilds are no longer an issue,we can easily find them everywhere.
3:They are the fastest cards on the market period.
4:They've shipped at least 2 million GPU's as of 3 weeks ago.


Nvidia:

1:First official presentation of Fermi was in late september,in order to take out some wind from ATI's anouncement a week earlier and even then,only talking about GP-GPU capabilities.
2:They're already on the 3rd respin of the GPU,as it kept having issues obviously with the previous revisions.
3:No gaming performance numbers still reveiled.
4:No official anouncement date for retail availability is still set.


You're right that in normal comparisons,we pick the best between both brands,but they both have to be available in the first place,and that isn't the case with Fermi,even 4 months after the release of the HD5870 cards,and the potential is there that they will be facing faster refresh cards by the time you can actually go out and buy one.


So the road for Fermi to establish itself as the king of the hill is very much an uphill one at this point,largely because it's so ****ing late as the main reason,so ATI win by default when your competition simply isn't there.


This isn't biased or brand preferance talking,it's just plain logic.
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Old 01-29-10, 08:50 PM   #197
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Default Re: 5870/5970 vs. GF100 (Fermi)

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I will have to disagree. No way that ATI makes more money then nvidia selling graphics cards. Sorry but nvidia has been doing this a long time, and if you honestly think nvidia is just in the pc market here, you are sadly mistaking. They make bank off of a lot of things. Their names are on big titles, they are even expanding into cars now. GPS, Phones, Consoles... The list just continues to grow. nvidia use to have an awesome sound board to. The nforce2 sound would out do a PCI Audigy Card back in the day. Their chipsets have been simply awesome.

SLI "enhanced memory". I mean they have their name on everything literally. ATI has just as of recent actually started to jump back up, and it just so happens they released their card first... If nvidia was that worried, they'd of released fermi already. However they are making damn sure all the bugs are worked out.

You're talking in global terms wich is much broader view overall,but i'm talking about DX11 cards specifically,which ATI is selling by the truckloads right now,and will do so for a while still,assuming Nvidia really releases Fermi in march and it's not a paper release,but with actual product on store shelves ready to buy.


You know,the same critisism levied on the HD5870 once it got released...That cuts both ways ,and the bottom line is,did Nvidia sell any DX11 cards so far?...Not a single one.
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Old 01-29-10, 09:10 PM   #198
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Default Re: 5870/5970 vs. GF100 (Fermi)

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Originally Posted by shadow001 View Post
How exactly is it baseless?...Let's review the facts shall we?

ATI:

1:They have their cards out,starting with the HD5870 in late september

That's really irrelevant PROVIDING Fermi doesn't tank

2:Yeilds are no longer an issue,we can easily find them everywhere.

Bull**** - The 5970 is still AWOL

3:They are the fastest cards on the market period.

True, but not by a great deal against substantially older technology (Except at 2560 x 1920 where it's just a case of unplayable FPS vs very unplayable FPS)

4:They've shipped at least 2 million GPU's as of 3 weeks ago.

Bully for them


Nvidia:

1:First official presentation of Fermi was in late september,in order to take out some wind from ATI's anouncement a week earlier and even then,only talking about GP-GPU capabilities.
2:They're already on the 3rd respin of the GPU,as it kept having issues obviously with the previous revisions.

So does ATI and they continue to do so as evidenced by the 5970 shortage - moot point

3:No gaming performance numbers still reveiled.

There have been some and they indicated that Fermi was ~35% faster than ATI on a GPU vs GPU basis

4:No official anouncement date for retail availability is still set.

It might not be official but people "in the know" are saying March


You're right that in normal comparisons,we pick the best between both brands,but they both have to be available in the first place,and that isn't the case with Fermi,even 4 months after the release of the HD5870 cards,and the potential is there that they will be facing faster refresh cards by the time you can actually go out and buy one.


So the road for Fermi to establish itself as the king of the hill is very much an uphill one at this point,largely because it's so ****ing late as the main reason,so ATI win by default when your competition simply isn't there.


This isn't biased or brand preferance talking,it's just plain logic.
I don't like ATI's current offerings and I've sold them on.

ATI has won nothing until Fermi is released, when that happens, we'll see who has the better hardware. If Nvidia had released first, I wouldn't be declaring them the winner by default, I'd want to see what ATI was offering as well, even if it meant waiting. It's very telling that you are already declaring "winners" and "losers".

The fact is, existing Nvidia hardware is capable of playing any game on the market and by the time there are more than 5 DX11 games, Fermi will have been released. It's not so much that Nvidia is late (and they are) as ATI was early.

You see, the difference between you and I is that if Fermi tanks, I won't try and defend Nvidia (I might well go with ATI's refresh at that point although Fermi would have to be very bad for that to happen), but if the Fermi arrives and smacks ATI upside the head, you'll still be here with some worthless rationale. It'll be heat or price or whatever.

TBH, I understand your position. If 2 Fermi GPUs are even close to as fast or faster than your 4 ATI GPUs, well, let's just say I probably wouldn't be very happy either.

PS : Just checked NCIX - Still no 5970s, so your "yields are no longer an issue" statement is FOS.

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Old 01-29-10, 09:59 PM   #199
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Default Re: 5870/5970 vs. GF100 (Fermi)

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You are dealing in baseless speculation....
Quote:
...if Fermi is as fast as has been hinted at and priced competitively, all will be forgiven and your "devoted" ATI users will be selling/ditching their 5xxx series cards in droves.
If you're going to accuse others of "baseless speculation", then you should probably avoid tossing gems like this out there yourself.

Why the hell would anyone who owns a 5970 (aside from yourself, apparently,) be so eager to ditch it for a lower performing card, which Fermi appears to be at this point? The cases that come to mind are those who just want a single GPU or those who just prefer to own Nvidia because of their drivers or general fandom for the company. But neither of these represent the majority or fit into your "droves" description. Majority public opinion appears to be just the opposite as the 5xxx series has been praised since launch by both professional reviews and users who have owned Nvidia in the past.
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Old 01-29-10, 10:01 PM   #200
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Default Re: 5870/5970 vs. GF100 (Fermi)

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If you're going to accuse others of "baseless speculation", then you should probably avoid tossing gems like this out there yourself.

Why the hell would anyone who owns a 5970 (aside from yourself, apparently,) be so eager to ditch it for a lower performing card, which Fermi appears to be at this point? The cases that come to mind are those who just want a single GPU or those who just prefer to own Nvidia because of their drivers or general fandom for the company. But neither of these represent the majority or fit into your "droves" description. Majority public opinion appears to be just the opposite as the 5xxx series has been praised since launch by both professional reviews and users who have owned Nvidia in the past.
I said if not when so stop looking for a reason to argue with me - I'd actually prefer it if you just put me on ignore.

BTW, Slawter is also ditching his 5970 so I guess it's not just me.
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Old 01-29-10, 10:13 PM   #201
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Default Re: 5870/5970 vs. GF100 (Fermi)

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I said if not when so stop looking for a reason to argue with me - I'd actually prefer it if you just put me on ignore.

BTW, Slawter is also ditching his 5970 so I guess it's not just me.
It doesn't matter that you said "if", and I'm not looking for a reason to argue with you, you overdefensive little *#&@#.

Drop your battered wife complex for a second and try to reason with me.

My point was not that you were claiming Fermi was as fast (I know that you said "if); the point was that "if" it was as fast as has been hinted, which is still slower than 5970, that you still said that 5xxx owners would be "ditching their cards in droves" to go with Nvidia.

Pass your magic 8 ball along so I can revel in its wisdom.

News flash: You and slawter don't represent the majority. Most users will not swap a faster card for a slower card--especially one they've spent 600+ on.
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Old 01-29-10, 10:14 PM   #202
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Default Re: 5870/5970 vs. GF100 (Fermi)

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It doesn't matter that you said "if", and I'm not looking for a reason to argue with you, you overdefensive little *#&@#.

Drop your battered wife complex for a second and try to reason with me.

My point was not that you were claiming Fermi was as fast (I know that you said "if); the point was that "if" it was as fast as has been hinted, which is still slower than 5970, that you still said that 5xxx owners would be "ditching their cards in droves" to go with Nvidia.

Pass your magic 8 ball along so I can revel in its wisdom.

News flash: You and slawter don't represent the majority. Most users will not swap a faster card for a slower card--especially one they've spent 600+ on.
More insults.

You need to tone down the aggression.

I won't be responding to you anymore.

Good luck.
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Old 01-29-10, 10:18 PM   #203
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Default Re: 5870/5970 vs. GF100 (Fermi)

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You need to tone down the aggression.
Likewise. You like to call people out for doing the same thing you are which is defending your decisions very passionately. You've been in more arguments than anyone on this forum for the past few weeks, I'd bet.

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Old 01-29-10, 10:53 PM   #204
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Default Re: 5870/5970 vs. GF100 (Fermi)

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You can type till your fingers fall off, I still don't like their current offerings and I've sold them on.

ATI has won nothing until Fermi is released, when that happens, we'll see who has the better hardware. If Nvidia had released first, I wouldn't be declaring them the winner by default, I'd want to see what ATI was offering as well, even if it meant waiting. It's very telling that you are already declaring "winners" and "losers".

That is likely the largest pile of bull i've ever heard,since i still remember the huge amount of flak when the shoe was on the other foot,and it was Nvidia beating ATI to the punch with the first DX10 card on the market,and it was ATI's turn to release a massively delayed card and it ended up not performing well enough to beat the 8800GTX,released over 6 months earlier,and you still ignored the common points between both of course.


1:The R600 was ATI's first DX10 GPU(so is Fermi with regards to DX11 from Nvidia).
2:The R600 was delayed by at least 6 months(Fermi is also late by 6 months).
3:The R600 also used a lot more power than the G80,and so does Fermi over Cypress.
4:the X2900XT actually needed a 6+8 PCI-e power connector arrangement,and so does the evaluation samples of Fermi shown at Comdex.
5:The R600 ran hot and the cooling was noisy,and it seems to be the same for Fermi.
6:ATI didn't reveal any performance figures for the X2900XT until the reviews were out,and it looks like Nvidia is doing the same thing with Fermi.
7:Permance wise,the R600 was a dissapointment and didn't beat the 8800GTX released months earlier,and that's the only thing we still don't know about Fermi.


The parallels are easy to make between both products for their respective timeframes,and what the competition had at the time,and who released their cards first,ended up being the faster card overall.


Quote:
The fact is, existing Nvidia hardware is capable of playing any game on the market and by the time there are more than 5 DX11 games, Fermi will have been released. It's not so much that Nvidia is late (and they are) as ATI was early.

That's actually pretty histerical since Nvidia released their 8800GTX 3 months before Vista was even available and there were 0 games using DX10,while ATI released the HD5800 series with the DX11 patch out for Vista,being right around the time that Windows 7 was released,which of course also supports DX11 and there's actually a few games using at least some DX11 features right now,and the bottom line is ATI is making money on DX11 card sales right now,while Nvidia hasn't made a dime on Fermi sales yet.


You were saying about being too early???

Quote:
You see, the difference between you and I is that if Fermi tanks, I won't try and defend Nvidia (I might well go with ATI's refresh at that point although Fermi would have to be very bad for that to happen), but if the Fermi arrives and smacks ATI upside the head, you'll still be here with some worthless rationale. It'll be heat or price or whatever.

I'm saving this quote for later use once Fermi reviews are out.....

Quote:
TBH, I understand your position. If 2 Fermi GPUs are even close to as fast or faster than your 4 ATI GPUs, well, let's just say I probably wouldn't be very happy either.

PS : Just checked NCIX - Still no 5970s, so your "yields are no longer an issue" statement is FOS.
LOL,keep dreaming in color....Here's a hint,didn't you find it funny that in all the slides regarding the gaming previews released recently to all major hardware sites,they compared it to the HD5870 cards,didn't make a mention of settings used in the least,and completely ignored that the HD5970 even existed in all the Nvidia provided slides?


Fermi is going to have enough trouble dealing with a Single Cypress GPU,never mind 2 of them,and god knows when a dual GPU fermi card is going to be released if the single GPU version is giving them this much trouble to release..


Here's a funny video that used for everything really,but really puts the perspective on the current situation right now:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR45ja_fNzU
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