Digit-Life: More on the Dishonest Treatment of the 3DMark 2003

DSC · 07-09-03, 10:28 AM

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/gffx/gffx-13.html

Found some interesting tidbits.

Quote:

But ATI is not only keeping pace in using such cheats but also lies by promising to remove them. Moreover, the RADEON 9800 stands farther from the reference than the FX5900 in the Game4.

Hmmmm......

Sazar · 07-09-03, 10:42 AM

I am trying to figure out how this is the case...

here is the comparative animated ati 9800pro gif...

http://www.ixbt.com/video2/images/gf...ro-g4-1500.gif

here is the same thing with teh 5900ultra..

http://www.ixbt.com/video2/images/gf...00-g4-1500.gif

looking @ the rest of the information...

this is just gt4 mind you... but I am trying to figure out how the conclusion was reached... (and yes ok.. you did leave out the nvidia reference... but I am assuming that was for a reason)... I can't for the life of me see the change...

anyways... considering the lad who did the article basically calls everyone a liar

I'ma gonna wait for dave and co on b3d to lay down the smacketh on this one...

Hanners · 07-09-03, 11:07 AM

I thought it had been proven that ATi had removed all their rewritten shaders from 3DMark 2003 (the scores certainly suggest that they have).

Morrow · 07-09-03, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanners
I thought it had been proven that ATi had removed all their rewritten shaders from 3DMark 2003 (the scores certainly suggest that they have).

no, not all, just the two Futuremark had found previously...

SurfMonkey · 07-09-03, 11:21 AM

Nobody proved that ATI had removed any cheats. They've probably just hidden them better, the same as Nvidia seems to have done.

Both companies are cheating scum that don't deserve our hard won cash. I mean they're both selling products based on lies and artificially propped up benchmarks. It sucks.

Roll on Kyro V.

Hanners · 07-09-03, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SurfMonkey
Nobody proved that ATI had removed any cheats. They've probably just hidden them better, the same as Nvidia seems to have done.

Unlike nVidia they gave their word though - I know somebodies word doesn't mean much in business but I'd just be surprised if ATi would even want to risk leaving the cheats in in any shape or form after making the statement they did.

I'm not totally convinced by this article on either the ATi or nVidia front - There just seems to be too many differences, even with AntiDetector running.

Hanners · 07-09-03, 12:10 PM

OK, well I think after a brief foray to Beyond3D we can forget the 'ATi is still cheating' idea right now. As for nVidia's results, well some (if not most) of them are probably incorrectly being labelled as cheats too. I really wish Digit Life would actually research into what they are doing before they do it.

From Kristof at Beyond3D:

Quote:

While the ref rast is indeed "the reference", making direct per pixel comparisons with it can be quite tricky and even potentially incorrect. One issue :

RefRast will do all maths at 32bits IEEE... R9800 is 24bits... so there are bound to be differences. There are a lot of other small tidbits that can go wrong or cause differences... there are lots of other accuracy issues that can show, texture interpolators, iterators, filtering accuracy...

So its not a trivial step to compare with ref rast and claim cheating if there are some difference present. Judging if ATI and or NVIDIA are within the margin of error can really only be answered by comparing the hardware spec and the ref rast spec and only ATI can do that.

kmolazz · 07-09-03, 12:48 PM

and also, ATI cards get the same score with and without unwinder anti-cheat program. At least it shows there is no specific aplication optimization.

surfhurleydude · 07-09-03, 01:03 PM

I don't really care one way or another if either company cheats, but I wouldn't mind ATi being proven to cheat as much as nVidia just so all of the ATi fanboys here can go back to their caves.

5150 Joker · 07-09-03, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by surfhurleydude
I don't really care one way or another if either company cheats, but I wouldn't mind ATi being proven to cheat as much as nVidia just so all of the ATi fanboys here can go back to their caves.

Looks like that isn't going to happen while nVidia just keeps getting caught with more cheats as time passes.

surfhurleydude · 07-09-03, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Looks like that isn't going to happen while nVidia just keeps getting caught with more cheats as time passes.

Apparently ATi *IS* getting caught for something now, even after saying they TOOK OUT EVERYTHING, however nVidia is just getting caught for doing what they've always been doing...

5150 Joker · 07-09-03, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by surfhurleydude
Apparently ATi *IS* getting caught for something now, even after saying they TOOK OUT EVERYTHING, however nVidia is just getting caught for doing what they've always been doing...

They did take out 3DMark03 optimizations. Dunno about 3DMark2001 but with nVidia it's more serious since its been confirmed they drop their AF quality in UT2003.

07-09-03, 10:42 AM	#2
Sazar Sayonara !!! Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 9,297	I am trying to figure out how this is the case... here is the comparative animated ati 9800pro gif... http://www.ixbt.com/video2/images/gf...ro-g4-1500.gif here is the same thing with teh 5900ultra.. http://www.ixbt.com/video2/images/gf...00-g4-1500.gif looking @ the rest of the information... this is just gt4 mind you... but I am trying to figure out how the conclusion was reached... (and yes ok.. you did leave out the nvidia reference... but I am assuming that was for a reason)... I can't for the life of me see the change... anyways... considering the lad who did the article basically calls everyone a liar I'ma gonna wait for dave and co on b3d to lay down the smacketh on this one... __________________ Help to find cures for Alzheimer's, Mad Cow (BSE), CJD, ALS, Huntington's, Parkinson's disease, and many Cancers. Folding@Home - Is it in you?

07-09-03, 11:07 AM	#3
Hanners Elite Bastard Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 984	I thought it had been proven that ATi had removed all their rewritten shaders from 3DMark 2003 (the scores certainly suggest that they have). __________________ Owner / Editor-in-Chief - Elite Bastards

07-09-03, 11:21 AM	#5
SurfMonkey QuadCore G80 PS3 Overload Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: In a small room surrounded by vast, inscrutable, machines... Posts: 491	Nobody proved that ATI had removed any cheats. They've probably just hidden them better, the same as Nvidia seems to have done. Both companies are cheating scum that don't deserve our hard won cash. I mean they're both selling products based on lies and artificially propped up benchmarks. It sucks. Roll on Kyro V. __________________ Folding for Beyond3D "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." Sir Winston Churchill "Halflife2 got halfway around the world before Gabe had a chance to get his pants on." Anon

07-09-03, 12:48 PM	#8
kmolazz Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4	and also, ATI cards get the same score with and without unwinder anti-cheat program. At least it shows there is no specific aplication optimization.

07-09-03, 01:03 PM	#9
surfhurleydude Radeon 9900 Pro Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 497	I don't really care one way or another if either company cheats, but I wouldn't mind ATi being proven to cheat as much as nVidia just so all of the ATi fanboys here can go back to their caves.