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Old 07-09-03, 02:29 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by surfhurleydude
? You obviously aren't reading my posts...



Konami is in a better financial position than Epic, and Electronic Arts is in a better financial position than both of them combined, yet EA is the biggest nVidia sell out of them all.

Yes but you're going by a hypothetical only. Nothing has been proven yet--especially Epic allowing this sort of thing to take place simply because they are part of the meant to be played program. Selling out for PR is one thing, letting nVidia screw w/your game to cheat is an entirely different matter.
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Old 07-09-03, 02:30 PM   #50
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surfhurleydude: well try these nice mipmaplevel screenies (mouseover thing) ....

same UT2003 setups (highest), same AF 8x via driver, Quality etc for both cards.

AF 8x comparison

Last edited by tertsi; 07-09-03 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 07-09-03, 02:33 PM   #51
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tertsi, I'm having trouble understanding the meaning of those shots... I can see the stars in the GF FX shot, but not in the Radeon 9700 shot... I'm guessing that means the GF FX has better ansio since it renders further? But the colors I just don't understand...Why is it pink and yellow in some places with the GF FX and then blue with the Radeon???
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Old 07-09-03, 02:37 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by surfhurleydude
tertsi, I'm having trouble understanding the meaning of those shots...
Me too, they're messy to say the least, they don't really show anything useful that I can see.
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Old 07-09-03, 03:05 PM   #53
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Default defending your company?

what is it about companies the inspire loyalty? In the past it's been customer support, features, performance, and bundle.....I don'd know how anyone can stand behind Nvidia, who promotes cheating as a way to compete for second place. Don't worry about me being a fanATIc. I'm pissed off at them too. If both companies cheat in benchmarks, where is the determining guide to which card is better suited to my needs? There isn't one. And untill a company or group steps forward and calls foul against all offenders there will be no fair benchmarks. For all of you that blindly think buying into this argument that it's ok to cheat, I hope that you live long and health lives, and are happy with your ideals.....because you will be perpetually in the dark.
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Old 07-09-03, 03:31 PM   #54
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surfhurleydude: colors corresponds mipmaplevels quality in UT2003.

Read this topic (from Beyond3d forum) and then take a closer look again at my screenies (note the "blue" wall)

There is zip also ( download ).
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Old 07-09-03, 04:18 PM   #55
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Default Re: defending your company?

Rather than evaluating the cheats themselves, we're justifying them by cheering about how the other company is cheating just as much. Way to defend the corporations against consumers!
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Old 07-09-03, 04:55 PM   #56
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[quote]Originally posted by surfhurleydude
[b]I love ATi fanboys and their selective quoting....

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Old 07-09-03, 08:04 PM   #57
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well i finished reading the whole article...

its excelent.. wow! good job Digitlife... here is a quote that sums well everything in the article ..

Quote:
Let's sum up the results of the 3DMark03. It's clear that NVIDIA prefers to camouflage the speed drops in the shader operation using certain tricks that boost the speed in the shader tests. The 3DMark03 is the most popular for today. But ATI is not only keeping pace in using such cheats but also lies by promising to remove them. Moreover, the RADEON 9800 stands farther from the reference than the FX5900 in the Game4. There is no doubt that the methods that let spend less resources on one or another mathematical function should be welcome. And if the guys at FutureMark do certain things imperfectly, and NVIDIA offers a simple and more optimal way, that is good. But in this case there is another rule that everyone must stick to: a program must work as originally planned (though I wish the developers showed what must be in the end). It's unfair to replace key commands in favor of one or another video card. We thus measure not the video cards performance but smartness of programmers.
and i will change the end by this.. "but the smartness of Futuremark programmers".because i have no problems with smart optimizations that increase performance without any drop in IQ.

the article could be even better in my opinion if they replaced the word cheat by optimizations. because we dont know exactly what ANti-detector is desactivating if legal optimizations or cheats. neither we know is antidetector is equally efective on ATI or NVidia drivers.because even the programmer UNWINDER told that he was unable to block some aplication detection from ATI drivers ,but that are there. so i think that unless ANti-detector do the same JOb in both cards ,or that we can clearly know what it is desactivating ,it should never be taken as the -ultimate Proof -of cheating.but more as a reference when ATI and NVidia detect aplications and compare the IQ diferences if there are any. even FUturemark patch 330 (the ones that FM says put everything right on track) and the detonators 4403 drivers doesnt look 100% exactly as the reference rasterizer images. so things are even more complicated because FM is not doing well their job.

Quote:
The problem is deeply studied. In short, today all testers actually measure a degree of smartness of the guys at ATI and NVIDIA as well as of FutureMark instead of estimating cards' performance in the 3DMark. FM turned out to be a prostitute between these two majors. If it's so simple to replace shaders and the developers keep silence, what can we call it yet? That concerns 3DMark2001. Strangely enough but they started protesting against cheats only in the 3DMark03. At the same time it turned out that NVIDIA wasn't a beta tester anymore as the company didn't want to pay through the nose every year.
so even Futuremark in being critizised here.
the image comparisons between ATI and NVidia and the references shots looks exactly as the references images ,even at 400% zoom shots. the diferences are only noticeable when analizing the images at the ultra-microscopic level with the DIrecX9 references images,with photoshop .

however what was a surprise to me is that in PS2.0 test and in game4 with or without optimizations the IQ of detonators 44.61 was even closest one -very close-to the directx9 references shots.what will be the ATI explantions now? that directx9 reference shots are not reliable

lest give up with 3dmarks ,enjoy it better as a demo,and compare better the performance in games.

Last edited by Nv40; 07-09-03 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 07-09-03, 08:24 PM   #58
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NV40, you should read the thread at beyond3d about that article. They raise some very good points. For instance, the reference image is not valid for pixel comparisons across different rendering methods of different architectures. Moreover, the difference between the reference image and an IHV's output can be caused by varying precisions. The CPU has been suggested to be using lower precision.

The style of the article was very unprofessional and sensationalist.

Another edit: If it turned out that ATI's lack of 32FPP caused the difference, then that's not cheating, just a drawback of the architecture.

Last edited by extreme_dB; 07-09-03 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 07-09-03, 08:29 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by extreme_dB
NV40, you should read the thread at beyond3d about that article. They raise some very good points. For instance, the reference image is not valid for pixel comparisons across different rendering methods of different architectures. Moreover, the difference between the reference image and an IHV's output can be caused by varying precisions. Even the CPU can be using lower precision.

The style of the article was very unprofessional and sensationalist.
its quite Ironic isnt it?

that now the Reference SHots are not reliable ,but they were in the past used to demostrate that Nvidia was lowering the IQ.
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Old 07-09-03, 08:31 PM   #60
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Sigh.

Difference between not using trilinear and the different floating point implementations.
 
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