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View Poll Results: Are you going to buy new Geforce?
Yes, I'm buying GF480 34 26.15%
Yes, I'm buying GF470 15 11.54%
I will buy ATI 38 29.23%
NO! 43 33.08%
Voters: 130. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-14-10, 02:56 PM   #205
Bah!
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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Originally Posted by Xion X2 View Post
Yeah, but take into account that these people, only naturally, will want to justify their purchases. About the closest thing you can have to unbiased is an overall take from tens of review sites that have been posted since Fermi launched. And in just about every one they emphasize the power/heat problems. I think to claim that they all were wrong based on the feedback of a few buyers is far fetched to say the least.

480 is a good card. All I'm saying is let's stick to the facts and not blow sunshine up people's *#&@^&@ about its drawbacks. There are plenty of positives to dwell on like its overclock scaling, CUDA, 3D vision, etc. When you try to paint a pretty picture about its power consumption/heat it's like trying to dress up a pig.
Who is blowing sunshine up peoples asses? If my computer temps are actually lower going from a 295 to a 480 that's not "blowing sunshine" it's just a simple freaking fact. If Crysis sits at 79c at 77%, both well below my last card, that's a fact, not blowing sunshine. The list goes on and on, every single game is cooler and with a lower fan speed, that's not blowing sunshine, or smoke, or whatever else you'd like to think. You think EVERYONE who has gotten one of these cards since they were released is lying?

You think Hardware Canucks just all of a sudden decided to justify this stuff AFTER the card hit peoples hands, or is it more probable to assume that there is a drastic difference between pre-release reviews about heat and the actual heat when the retail cards came out?

Take a look at the 1:30 mark on in this video, I'm sure these guys are lying like the rest of us. Notice this came out AFTER retail release:

http://www.overclock.net/nvidia/7076...boxing-53.html
And who mentioned anything positive about the 480's power consumption?...not anyone that I've seen.


Sorry, if all you are basing your heat comments on is reviews from pre-release products then you don't know half the picture.

The GTX 470/480 are not quiet cards, but they are no louder than the 200 series until you get above 80%+ fan speed, of which my card only hits in Furmark. They are also no hotter than your average high end 200 series card when put in the exact same environment.

No where has anyone ever claimed that the power draw was impressive or even good, it actually flat out sucks. The heat on the other hand has been blown out of proportion more than any so called flaw in any piece of hardware that I can ever remember.
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Old 04-14-10, 02:57 PM   #206
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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I'm not calling you out specifically, Sly. I just see a growing contingent around here who seem to be trying to convince others that the documented, unbiased research that has been gathered as a whole from tens of review sites since Fermi's launch (and even the site owner, MikeC) is somehow flawed based on either their own experience or hunch. And, surprise-surprise, they're all 480 purchasers. And as a facts-based guy, I have problems with that. It has nothing to do with Nvidia or ATI, for the record. I'd have the same problem if some were doing this with ATI (which Shadow has often done and which I have openly disagreed with.)

You just can't get around the power usage and so in no way can the heat be "exaggerated" as it's a direct result of the power consumption. Every 480 that every guy out there puts in his box draws the same amount of power under the same circumstances. How a user decides to cool his case/card is an outside variable, but the core issue remains.
Don't get me wrong, I'm still apprehensive about the heat but I'll draw my own conclusions at this point. Worst case, I'll sell them.
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Old 04-14-10, 03:31 PM   #207
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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You just can't get around the power usage and so in no way can the heat be "exaggerated" as it's a direct result of the power consumption. Every 480 that every guy out there puts in his box draws the same amount of power under the same circumstances. How a user decides to cool his case/card is an outside variable, but the core issue remains.
That's not true actually.
There's a direct link between the power usage and the temperature. If you can keep the card cooled, it will draw less power.

See here
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Old 04-14-10, 03:44 PM   #208
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

I think it was because that the 5000 series had exceptionally efficient power consumption and cooling, that everybody balked at the power and temperature profiles of these GTX 480s. Although there really isn't anything good you can say about the power consumption of a GTX 480, the temperatures (provided you don't use the default fan profiles and instead manually set the fans to your own personal preference for balance between noise and temperatures), aren't really out of line with the previous generation of NVIDIA cards.

The 5000 series is the maturation of a design, while the GTX 480 is the birth of a design. When ATI first embarked on their current design paradigm, the HD 2900 was a card that was late to the game, that consumed as much power as an 8800 Ultra, and performed only as well as an 640MB 8800 GTS. Hopefully Fermi is just going through the same birthing pains and will become a much stronger architecture for the future.
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Old 04-14-10, 03:47 PM   #209
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

Bah! -

Where did I ever compare your 295 to a 480? One should expect that a single-GPU card would run cooler than a dual-GPU card would.
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Old 04-14-10, 04:02 PM   #210
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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Originally Posted by Xion X2 View Post
Bah! -

Where did I ever compare your 295 to a 480? One should expect that a single-GPU card would run cooler than a dual-GPU card would.
Why? According to you Power = heat and a 295 is about the same power.

And I've been comparing the two because that was my last card. Not that it matters, have you happened to look at the temps on a 280 or 285 under the same circumstances?...it's higher than my temps as well.
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Old 04-14-10, 04:08 PM   #211
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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Originally Posted by Xion X2 View Post
You just can't get around the power usage and so in no way can the heat be "exaggerated" as it's a direct result of the power consumption. Every 480 that every guy out there puts in his box draws the same amount of power under the same circumstances. How a user decides to cool his case/card is an outside variable, but the core issue remains.
Power consumption alone does not dictate the heat of a video card. How much power to does and 5970 pull compared to a 480?...what about a 295? If power consumption was the end all be all of heat, both of those cards would perform similar temp. wise with a 480 but they don't. A 295 runs hotter and 5970 runs cooler.

Not to mention the fact that the cooling system on the 480 is more efficient (mostly out of necessity) than the last generation of Nvidia cards which is why both of my previous Nvidia cards ran hotter in this exact same setup.

Reviews can tell you all sorts of things, but I don't see how you can get more definitive evidence than having someone pull one card out of a system and slapping the next in and comparing results, which is what many of us have been doing.

Hell, even Kyle over at [H] (who everyone loves to use as an example of heat issues) tested SLI 480's in adjacent slots and was only hitting 92-93c or so with the AUTO fan profile, which as I've mentioned a half dozen times is garbage. Even so his fan speeds were like 70% on one and 60 something on the other. That's SLI folks, and had he set his fans to ramp up faster his temps would be in the mid to high 80's.

Since when are Nvidia cards running SLI mid to high 80's too hot? Someone please explain to
me how 285's hitting mid 80s in SLI is ok, but 480's in SLI hitting mid to high 80's would be excessive? What about the 8xxx series of cards, didn't any of these people ever own one of them?...easily hotter than the 480 in my rig, easily.

Right, I get it, the 5xxx cards from Ati freaking rock and power consumption, noise, and temps. But compared to the last few generation of Nvidia cards, the 480 are no where near out of line, and I can't remember this much complaining about any of those cards.
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Old 04-14-10, 04:09 PM   #212
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

I've been thinking about this more, and I think I'm actually leaning back toward nvidia again.

After looking at more benchmarks, and the results people are posting here on the forums, I think I'd get far more out of a 480 than I would out of a 5850 or a 5870... even for the added cost. In the situations where the performance wouldn't be acceptable to me, an overclocked 480 is really the only single GPU solution that pulls far enough ahead to make a difference to me. I don't care if my current card gets 12fps and a 5870 gets 27fps... I don't game at 27fps. If an overclocked 480 can manage 40+fps in the same situation, I don't care if it dims the lights in my house to do so.

Also, I want Physx support... that's all there is to it. Cramming my 260 AND a Radeon into this case would require cutting some holes to rout wires, which isn't that bad, and there's a possibility that I'd need to buy a PCI-E sound card since my X-Fi would be covering up the fan on any non-standard heatsink designs (the ones that tend to be lower priced), and I wouldn't be able to move it to a lower slot due to the 260 taking up that space.

So, lets look at it this way. A 5850 + my current GTX 260 would suck quite a bit of power out of the wall at idle, and definitely more under load in a Physx game. And it'd put out a LOT more heat. According to anandtech, the GTX 480 only runs about 7C hotter at idle than the 260, so having two high end graphics cards in there is obviously going to put out FAR more heat than I'm used to.

Now, lets talk about cost. I should be able to sell my eVGA GTX 260 on ebay for $150-$170 since I still have the retail box and everything that came with the card. Since I'd be keeping the card just to get Physx functionality with a 58xx, that has to be accounted for.

If I bought a GTX480 for the $500 MSRP and sold my 260 for $150, I'd only be spending $350 to get all the functionality I need in a single card. Factor in the potential for massive performance improvements from overclocking, and the 480 just seems like the better buy for me.

So... I guess I'll wait to see how the pricing and availability is over the next week or two. If the opportunity presents itself, I may have to grab one. It may be incredibly inefficient under load... but... meh. I don't game THAT much any more. When I do though, I want the best performance and the absolute highest visual quality I can afford.
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Old 04-14-10, 04:44 PM   #213
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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Originally Posted by Bah! View Post
Power consumption alone does not dictate the heat of a video card...
Quote:
Posted By: Joseph Weeks, President
Area of science: Computer Science

Question posed: How do I calculate how much heat computer components generate?

Answer: Essentially all of the electric power that the equipment uses is converted to heat.
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...5868.Cs.r.html

Quote:
How much power to does and 5970 pull compared to a 480?...what about a 295? If power consumption was the end all be all of heat, both of those cards would perform similar temp. wise with a 480 but they don't. A 295 runs hotter and 5970 runs cooler.
There are outside variables such as fan profiles, but you're not understanding. I already mentioned there are outside variables. What I am saying is that there is no argument against the actual heat that is produced by 480. As is mentioned above, essentially ALL electrical power used by computer components is converted to heat.

Now, take a look at this power consumption chart from Anandtech--



480 draws 61w more than 285 did (this is what you consider "not out of line with past cards?" ) and 14w more than 295 did and 43w more than 5970 does. And in dual-GPU form, it draws 111w more than its closest competitor.

So tell me how, in the laws of physics, does one ignore this correlation to heat given the fact that essentially all wattage (not part or some, but ALL) is converted to heat?

Now you can try to get around that with adjusted fan profiles that increase fan speed or frequency, but the end result is that you have a card outputting more heat than anything else on the market, sans one card (4870X2.) Nothing has been "exaggerated" in terms of how hot this card runs as heat correlates with power consumption which we've already seen is more than any other card on the market this or past generation except for 4870X2. What people are seeing are workarounds from Nvidia like adjusted fan profiles to try to cover that up. But nothing in the reviews was exaggerated one bit. It was real world testing--good old facts and figures. You can even watch it on video in Kyle's tests with his Kilowatt tool.
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Old 04-14-10, 04:47 PM   #214
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

No one is trying to get around the fact that the TDP is bad. It is bad, there is no denying that. I love the fact that my 5870 CF setup is so cool, quiet and efficient - LOVE IT.

But

I still have to try the power hungry SLI 480 setup (should be here in the morning). Fingers crossed that it's a good experience
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Old 04-14-10, 04:48 PM   #215
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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Also, I want Physx support... that's all there is to it.

Seriously, if you really care about Physx that much, you need to have a videocard dedicated to it. The framerate impact is just too much when you use Physx on a videocard that's already rendering graphics. Even with SLI, it's better to have an extra GPU for Physx. Physx impacts framerate more than it should on SLI because the drivers aren't smart enough to share the loads properly.
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Old 04-14-10, 04:54 PM   #216
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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No one is trying to get around the fact that the TDP is bad. It is bad, there is no denying that. I love the fact that my 5870 CF setup is so cool, quiet and efficient - LOVE IT.

But

I still have to try the power hungry SLI 480 setup (should be here in the morning). Fingers crossed that it's a good experience
Do you have an extra videocard lying around for PhysX as well? What I'm curious about is how 2 x 480 GTXes + another card for Physx will work. I think that will be close to the limit of what my 1000W PSU and Thermaltake XaserVI can handle.
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