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Old 04-14-10, 05:43 PM   #229
brunner
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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Originally Posted by CaptNKILL View Post
Have you seen any benchmarks of a system running a GTX480 with a dedicated Physx card vs without?
I've tried 2x295s and 2x280s with and without a PhysX card. I'm pretty sure that those configs are at least equivalent to a single 480 in most cases. Having a dedicated Physx card makes a big difference every time. What you said about the 480 GTX might be right but I think it's not just a hardware issue. Nvidia drivers seem to have a hard time distributing the loads between graphics and Physx efficiently when you're not dedicating a GPU to just Physx.

Check out the JC2 benchmarks for a single 480GTX. It does less than 40FPS on that concrete jungle test once GPU water physics is turned on. From what I've seen of the water physics, it's not anything more impressive than what's in a typical Physx heavy game. I'm pretty sure that there would be major performance benefits if JC2 had allowed an extra GPU to be dedicated to just processing physics.
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Old 04-14-10, 05:57 PM   #230
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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I've been thinking about this more, and I think I'm actually leaning back toward nvidia again.

After looking at more benchmarks, and the results people are posting here on the forums, I think I'd get far more out of a 480 than I would out of a 5850 or a 5870... even for the added cost. In the situations where the performance wouldn't be acceptable to me, an overclocked 480 is really the only single GPU solution that pulls far enough ahead to make a difference to me. I don't care if my current card gets 12fps and a 5870 gets 27fps... I don't game at 27fps. If an overclocked 480 can manage 40+fps in the same situation, I don't care if it dims the lights in my house to do so.

Also, I want Physx support... that's all there is to it. Cramming my 260 AND a Radeon into this case would require cutting some holes to rout wires, which isn't that bad, and there's a possibility that I'd need to buy a PCI-E sound card since my X-Fi would be covering up the fan on any non-standard heatsink designs (the ones that tend to be lower priced), and I wouldn't be able to move it to a lower slot due to the 260 taking up that space.

So, lets look at it this way. A 5850 + my current GTX 260 would suck quite a bit of power out of the wall at idle, and definitely more under load in a Physx game. And it'd put out a LOT more heat. According to anandtech, the GTX 480 only runs about 7C hotter at idle than the 260, so having two high end graphics cards in there is obviously going to put out FAR more heat than I'm used to.

Now, lets talk about cost. I should be able to sell my eVGA GTX 260 on ebay for $150-$170 since I still have the retail box and everything that came with the card. Since I'd be keeping the card just to get Physx functionality with a 58xx, that has to be accounted for.

If I bought a GTX480 for the $500 MSRP and sold my 260 for $150, I'd only be spending $350 to get all the functionality I need in a single card. Factor in the potential for massive performance improvements from overclocking, and the 480 just seems like the better buy for me.

So... I guess I'll wait to see how the pricing and availability is over the next week or two. If the opportunity presents itself, I may have to grab one. It may be incredibly inefficient under load... but... meh. I don't game THAT much any more. When I do though, I want the best performance and the absolute highest visual quality I can afford.


You should have bought an HD5970 card last year in november and still kept the GTX260 as a physics card,which there is a way to still keep GPU physics while running an ATI graphics card,as long as you have windows 7 as the O/S.


Both the HD5970 and the GTX 480 are pretty similar in terms of power consumption in the end,but the HD5970 was released 6 months ago and performs a lot better overall....In fact,if you're making a case that the GTX480 justifies it's power use and price because the performance gap is there between it and the HD5870,then the performance gap between the GTX480 and the HD5970 is actually quite a bit larger overall,and the power use is the same for both cards.


So why did you wait for the GTX480 in the first place?
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Old 04-14-10, 06:01 PM   #231
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

Well, the 480 is still $200 cheaper so it's not exactly a fair comparison.
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Old 04-14-10, 06:08 PM   #232
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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Well, the 480 is still $200 cheaper so it's not exactly a fair comparison.

He said he wanted the best performance period and didn't mind the extra power use to deliver that extra performance,so the HD5970 delivers even better performance still,and uses the same power as the GTX480 and was released 6 months ago.


And it's not a 200$ difference between the GTX480 and the HD5970,since most GTX480's are actually selling for 530~550$ at retail,so it's a 150$ difference or close to it....Not much higher than the difference between the HD5870 and the GTX480 cards in fact,as most HD5870's aren't much above 400$ these days.


But i'm sure the dual GPU excuse will pop up....
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Old 04-14-10, 06:13 PM   #233
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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Originally Posted by brunner View Post
I've tried 2x295s and 2x280s with and without a PhysX card. I'm pretty sure that those configs are at least equivalent to a single 480 in most cases. Having a dedicated Physx card makes a big difference every time. What you said about the 480 GTX might be right but I think it's not just a hardware issue. Nvidia drivers seem to have a hard time distributing the loads between graphics and Physx efficiently when you're not dedicating a GPU to just Physx.

Check out the JC2 benchmarks for a single 480GTX. It does less than 40FPS on that concrete jungle test once GPU water physics is turned on. From what I've seen of the water physics, it's not anything more impressive than what's in a typical Physx heavy game. I'm pretty sure that there would be major performance benefits if JC2 had allowed an extra GPU to be dedicated to just processing physics.
Good points.

Still, for my purposes it seems much better to not try to use my 260 for a dedicated Physx card, and spending $400 on a 5870 and $80 on a GT240 doesn't seem like the best way to spend $500. Getting a single 480 and overclocking it as much as possible will net me the most performance in the most games and I'll still be able to play any current Physx title without any significant performance issues.

If I feel its worth it later on, I should still be able to grab a GT240 to take the physx load off of the 480.

... all this is assuming I actually go ahead and buy one.

$500 is one cubic assload of money to someone like me.
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Old 04-14-10, 06:30 PM   #234
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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Originally Posted by CaptNKILL View Post
I've been thinking about this more, and I think I'm actually leaning back toward nvidia again.

After looking at more benchmarks, and the results people are posting here on the forums, I think I'd get far more out of a 480 than I would out of a 5850 or a 5870... even for the added cost. In the situations where the performance wouldn't be acceptable to me, an overclocked 480 is really the only single GPU solution that pulls far enough ahead to make a difference to me. I don't care if my current card gets 12fps and a 5870 gets 27fps... I don't game at 27fps. If an overclocked 480 can manage 40+fps in the same situation, I don't care if it dims the lights in my house to do so.

Also, I want Physx support... that's all there is to it. Cramming my 260 AND a Radeon into this case would require cutting some holes to rout wires, which isn't that bad, and there's a possibility that I'd need to buy a PCI-E sound card since my X-Fi would be covering up the fan on any non-standard heatsink designs (the ones that tend to be lower priced), and I wouldn't be able to move it to a lower slot due to the 260 taking up that space.

So, lets look at it this way. A 5850 + my current GTX 260 would suck quite a bit of power out of the wall at idle, and definitely more under load in a Physx game. And it'd put out a LOT more heat. According to anandtech, the GTX 480 only runs about 7C hotter at idle than the 260, so having two high end graphics cards in there is obviously going to put out FAR more heat than I'm used to.

Now, lets talk about cost. I should be able to sell my eVGA GTX 260 on ebay for $150-$170 since I still have the retail box and everything that came with the card. Since I'd be keeping the card just to get Physx functionality with a 58xx, that has to be accounted for.

If I bought a GTX480 for the $500 MSRP and sold my 260 for $150, I'd only be spending $350 to get all the functionality I need in a single card. Factor in the potential for massive performance improvements from overclocking, and the 480 just seems like the better buy for me.

So... I guess I'll wait to see how the pricing and availability is over the next week or two. If the opportunity presents itself, I may have to grab one. It may be incredibly inefficient under load... but... meh. I don't game THAT much any more. When I do though, I want the best performance and the absolute highest visual quality I can afford.
i'm really impressed by my 480, runs much cooler then my 280 used to.

here is single example, i was playing HAWX today with everything maxed, it put 98% load on GPU.

temp stayed around 82c with fan of 74% on the 480, room temp was 88f note: it usually never gets hotter than this in "entertaiment" room

few days ago i was playing the same game and 280 peaked at 91c with 100%, and few days ago room temp was 77f

we usually turn on the AC later when few concurrent hot days happen.

i'm really impressed by the cooling on this card.

my case is on the floor under the desk, i start hearing the videocard fan around 77ish %.
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Old 04-14-10, 07:16 PM   #235
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...5868.Cs.r.html



There are outside variables such as fan profiles, but you're not understanding. I already mentioned there are outside variables. What I am saying is that there is no argument against the actual heat that is produced by 480. As is mentioned above, essentially ALL electrical power used by computer components is converted to heat.

Now, take a look at this power consumption chart from Anandtech--



480 draws 61w more than 285 did (this is what you consider "not out of line with past cards?" ) and 14w more than 295 did and 43w more than 5970 does. And in dual-GPU form, it draws 111w more than its closest competitor.

So tell me how, in the laws of physics, does one ignore this correlation to heat given the fact that essentially all wattage (not part or some, but ALL) is converted to heat?

Now you can try to get around that with adjusted fan profiles that increase fan speed or frequency, but the end result is that you have a card outputting more heat than anything else on the market, sans one card (4870X2.) Nothing has been "exaggerated" in terms of how hot this card runs as heat correlates with power consumption which we've already seen is more than any other card on the market this or past generation except for 4870X2. What people are seeing are workarounds from Nvidia like adjusted fan profiles to try to cover that up. But nothing in the reviews was exaggerated one bit. It was real world testing--good old facts and figures. You can even watch it on video in Kyle's tests with his Kilowatt tool.
Who give a flying **** about how much heat is generated if the end result is better? You're all hung up on the power, and totally disregarding the fact that, regardless of what draw the 480 uses, it dissipates heat better than even lower power Nvidia cards, which in turn ends up with lower temps than those cards.

You can talk power consumption until you are blue in the face, it doesn't change the fact that in Furmark or any other game I run, my temps are lower than the average 285 users and that's all that matters when it comes to heat in my computer!

If you want to ramble on about the laws of physics, be my guest, but none of that means a damn thing when i can slap a 295 in my computer, turn the fan to 80% and end up 10c hotter than my 480 at a slower fan speed in every single application installed on my PC.


If you honestly think all this bitching about heat has ANYTHING to do with total heat you're the one who doesn't understand. It's all about the temps on the cores and that's it. It's all "holy **** 96c!!!" No one would give a flying **** if these cards generated MORE heat,as long as that heat was dissipated and when they looked at their GPU clocks it said 42c or 60c or whatever.

When was the last time anyone complained about the heat a 5970 generated in total, or a 5870 CF in total?...NEVER, all they care about is that the cores stay relativity cool compared to other cards. Twist it all you want, but when the GPU on my 480 stays COOLER under the same conditions as a 295 or even a 285, then heat is a non-factor.

Now suddenly when it turns out the cards don't run at 95c all the time I'm supposed to give a **** about total heat instead of the actual temps of the card and computer? The fact that the end result is BETTER in the same case is irrelevant?

It's ****ing annoying that I can't come to a GF100 series forum and discuss my ACTUAL ****ing results without people calling me and other liars or blowing smoke up peoples asses when all I am doing is reporting the facts.

Take it or leave it, I don't give a ****.
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Old 04-14-10, 07:22 PM   #236
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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Originally Posted by Bah! View Post

It's ****ing annoying that I can't come to a GF100 series forum and discuss my ACTUAL ****ing results without people calling me and other liars or blowing smoke up peoples asses when all I am doing is reporting the facts.

Take it or leave it, I don't give a ****.
agreed times infinity
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Old 04-14-10, 08:14 PM   #237
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

We are not the only ones reporting the noise is not as loud as the review sites.

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=...9&postcount=13
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Old 04-14-10, 08:18 PM   #238
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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Who give a flying **** about how much heat is generated if the end result is better? You're all hung up on the power, and totally disregarding the fact that, regardless of what draw the 480 uses, it dissipates heat better than even lower power Nvidia cards, which in turn ends up with lower temps than those cards.

You can talk power consumption until you are blue in the face, it doesn't change the fact that in Furmark or any other game I run, my temps are lower than the average 285 users and that's all that matters when it comes to heat in my computer!

If you want to ramble on about the laws of physics, be my guest, but none of that means a damn thing when i can slap a 295 in my computer, turn the fan to 80% and end up 10c hotter than my 480 at a slower fan speed in every single application installed on my PC.


If you honestly think all this bitching about heat has ANYTHING to do with total heat you're the one who doesn't understand. It's all about the temps on the cores and that's it. It's all "holy **** 96c!!!" No one would give a flying **** if these cards generated MORE heat,as long as that heat was dissipated and when they looked at their GPU clocks it said 42c or 60c or whatever.

When was the last time anyone complained about the heat a 5970 generated in total, or a 5870 CF in total?...NEVER, all they care about is that the cores stay relativity cool compared to other cards. Twist it all you want, but when the GPU on my 480 stays COOLER under the same conditions as a 295 or even a 285, then heat is a non-factor.

Now suddenly when it turns out the cards don't run at 95c all the time I'm supposed to give a **** about total heat instead of the actual temps of the card and computer? The fact that the end result is BETTER in the same case is irrelevant?

It's ****ing annoying that I can't come to a GF100 series forum and discuss my ACTUAL ****ing results without people calling me and other liars or blowing smoke up peoples asses when all I am doing is reporting the facts.

Take it or leave it, I don't give a ****.


Not at all,and it's your choice in the end,but for roughly the same amount of power and heat that the GTX480 can generate,there's the HD5970 cards on the market for the last 6+ months,which offer better performance overall,regardless if it's a dual GPU card.


The single GPU HD5870 was never intended to be the high end version of the HD5*** lineup,so people need to stop ignoring that the HD5970 exists and is being a pain on the GTX480's side to a large degree,and everybody knows it by now.


The hardware reviews for the GTX480 were pretty much universal when it came to power and heat issues regarding these cards,and that trubritar video i posted eariler showing an i7 980x clocked at 4.4Ghz with a triple GTX480 SLI setup drawing up to 1150 watts continously at the wall outlet when running either the Heaven demo or 3Dmark vantage says it all really.


http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=trubritar#g/u


Here's the latest video:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=.../0/qsrbHMr31S8....


The HD 5970 finishes first quite easily on the Crysis benchmark and uses less power than the GTX480 setup,but you can lie to yourself all you like.
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Old 04-14-10, 08:47 PM   #239
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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Originally Posted by lee63 View Post
We are not the only ones reporting the noise is not as loud as the review sites.

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=...9&postcount=13
yap, all the negative buzz is pretty much bull****
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Old 04-14-10, 09:20 PM   #240
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

Ok, the card runs cooler than the GTX 295. It's got a fabulous cooler. We get it.

The thing that you're failing to mention is that the cooler is so good that it is indeed pulling heat away from the card almost as fast as it's made. So, where does that heat go? Out into your room. That's coming from a card that requires a ton of power already, but now, you've got to factor in the added cooling cost from your central heating and air due to the extra heat. That's the kicker. The heat is still there. It's just being pushed out into the room more quickly and efficiently than cards before it.

I'm incredibly glad that the card runs cooler and quieter than most have said it does, but that heat is still there, the power usage is still there, and the cost of cooling that sucker is still there. Even the 5970 uses less power and performs better!

Seriously, I wanted Fermi to be really good, but the facts and laws of physics are against it. It's overpriced, uses too much power, generates too much heat, and still isn't the top performing consumer graphics solution on the market. Hopefully the refresh will be better.
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