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View Poll Results: Are you going to buy new Geforce?
Yes, I'm buying GF480 34 26.15%
Yes, I'm buying GF470 15 11.54%
I will buy ATI 38 29.23%
NO! 43 33.08%
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Old 04-14-10, 09:39 PM   #241
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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Originally Posted by shadow001 View Post

but you can lie to yourself all you like.
More fuel for the fire...keep it up.
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Old 04-14-10, 09:50 PM   #242
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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Not at all,and it's your choice in the end,but for roughly the same amount of power and heat that the GTX480 can generate,there's the HD5970 cards on the market for the last 6+ months,which offer better performance overall,regardless if it's a dual GPU card.
For roughly the same amount of power and heat that the HD 5870 Crossfire can generate (within 10%), there's GTX 470 SLI cards which offer better performance than HD 5970, in addition to an arguably more robust graphics/compute feature set, arguably better image quality with 32x CSAA mode, and far better performance with future games too based on extreme tesselation benchmarks.


Quote:
The single GPU HD5870 was never intended to be the high end version of the HD5*** lineup,so people need to stop ignoring that the HD5970 exists and is being a pain on the GTX480's side to a large degree,and everybody knows it by now.
Talk about an HD 5970 owner grasping for straws, my goodness. I doubt that many GTX 480 owner's or soon-to-be owner's have even given a second thought to HD 5970, and if they have, then I'm sure they would rather go for GTX 470 SLI instead now.
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Old 04-14-10, 09:53 PM   #243
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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Ok, the card runs cooler than the GTX 295. It's got a fabulous cooler. We get it.

The thing that you're failing to mention is that the cooler is so good that it is indeed pulling heat away from the card almost as fast as it's made. So, where does that heat go? Out into your room. That's coming from a card that requires a ton of power already, but now, you've got to factor in the added cooling cost from your central heating and air due to the extra heat. That's the kicker. The heat is still there. It's just being pushed out into the room more quickly and efficiently than cards before it.

I'm incredibly glad that the card runs cooler and quieter than most have said it does, but that heat is still there, the power usage is still there, and the cost of cooling that sucker is still there. Even the 5970 uses less power and performs better!

Seriously, I wanted Fermi to be really good, but the facts and laws of physics are against it. It's overpriced, uses too much power, generates too much heat, and still isn't the top performing consumer graphics solution on the market. Hopefully the refresh will be better.
And yet 99.9% of the bitching about Fermi has absolutely zero to to do with what you just said. People aren't saying, "oh it's cooler but it pumps heat in your house" they are saying, "oh it runs at 95c all the time, you could cook an egg on it, blah, blah, blah".

And I love how people are changing the argument from, "I don't believe these people, I'll believe reviewers" to, "it's still producing heat, even if it's keeping the card cooler".

So this whole time, all of us who have been showing GPU temps have repeatedly been blown off by people as "just justifying our purchase", and now that people are starting to realize that the GPU temps are lower than what we've been seeing, and the GPU temps have been overstated, it's now a matter of, "it's still heating your house".

Can you honestly tell me that even with the ridiculous power draw, and total heat, that if reviewers had posted GPU temps anywhere near the 5xxx series that we'd even being talking about this? Hell no, because no one gives a **** about the temp. of the air coming out of their computer, they care about the temps inside, and if you don't believe that then you know squat about the enthusiast market.

It seems people don't like the results so they are trying to change the argument.
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Old 04-14-10, 10:08 PM   #244
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyjames123 View Post
For roughly the same amount of power and heat that the HD 5870 Crossfire can generate (within 10%), there's GTX 470 SLI cards which offer better performance than HD 5970, in addition to an arguably more robust graphics/compute feature set, arguably better image quality with 32x CSAA mode, and far better performance with future games too based on extreme tesselation benchmarks.




Talk about an HD 5970 owner grasping for straws, my goodness. I doubt that many GTX 480 owner's or soon-to-be owner's have even given a second thought to HD 5970, and if they have, then I'm sure they would rather go for GTX 470 SLI instead now.
Woah! How did you come to that conclusion?



You should probably go back and redo that math. The GTX 470 SLI is somewhat compelling, but you forget about the deficit in performance compared to the 5870, both single and Crossfire vs. SLI, not to mention how close a 5970 is to the GTX 470 in overall performance... and geeze, the GTX 470 uses almost as much power as the 5970. That's utterly insane!

Here's some examples on the performance front:











And lets not forget about power consumption either:




Seriously, for the price they're asking for these cards, the 5850 is close, if not the clear winner, and the 5870 CF setup beats it 80% of the time. Not to mention the power consumption is much lower on the 5970 and even the 5870 CF setup.



I'm still not seeing the advantage of having one of these cards, both single and SLI, other than Tessellation performance.
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Old 04-14-10, 10:13 PM   #245
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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Originally Posted by Bah! View Post
And yet 99.9% of the bitching about Fermi has absolutely zero to to do with what you just said. People aren't saying, "oh it's cooler but it pumps heat in your house" they are saying, "oh it runs at 95c all the time, you could cook an egg on it, blah, blah, blah".

And I love how people are changing the argument from, "I don't believe these people, I'll believe reviewers" to, "it's still producing heat, even if it's keeping the card cooler".

So this whole time, all of us who have been showing GPU temps have repeatedly been blown off by people as "just justifying our purchase", and now that people are starting to realize that the GPU temps are lower than what we've been seeing, and the GPU temps have been overstated, it's now a matter of, "it's still heating your house".

Can you honestly tell me that even with the ridiculous power draw, and total heat, that if reviewers had posted GPU temps anywhere near the 5xxx series that we'd even being talking about this? Hell no, because no one gives a **** about the temp. of the air coming out of their computer, they care about the temps inside, and if you don't believe that then you know squat about the enthusiast market.

It seems people don't like the results so they are trying to change the argument.
The argument is incredibly legitimate. The current Fermi architecture is inefficient in its current state. Sure, it's slightly more powerful, but you're giving up so much to get that extra little bit of performance. The heat is transferred away from the card via a solution that will give the best aftermarket solutions a run for their money. So, we literally can't get any better on the cooling front without going with a water cooling setup, which ironically, costs even more money than you've already spent to get the card in the first place...

The card is on the bitter edge of acceptable as far as heat output. Why some people don't see that is beyond me. I can't imagine how bad an SLI GTX 480 setup must be.
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Old 04-14-10, 10:47 PM   #246
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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Woah! How did you come to that conclusion?
Idle/Load temps and power consumption are shown in the recent GTX 470 SLI review at Hardware Canucks. If you "do the math", you will see that it is within 10% of the temps and consumption of HD 5870 Crossfire (while having greater than 20% higher minimum framerates than HD 5850 Crossfire across all resolutions with 4xAA enabled):






Quote:
Originally Posted by Madpistol
You should probably go back and redo that math. The GTX 470 SLI is somewhat compelling, but you forget about the deficit in performance compared to the 5870, both single and Crossfire vs. SLI, not to mention how close a 5970 is to the GTX 470 in overall performance.
Maybe you should re-read the articles that you link to.

Here is an excerpt from Hardware Canucks review:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HardwareCanucks
On the other hand, the HD 5970 is simply trampled by the GTX 470 SLI setup [with respect to average and especially minimum framerate performance]".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madpistol
Here's some examples on the performance front
And here are some further examples on the performance front:


GTX 470 has 10% higher minimum framerate than HD 5870, while SLI nearly doubles the framerate and Crossfire simply crashes:


GTX 470 has the same minimum framerate as HD 5870:


GTX 470 has the same minimum (and average) framerate as HD 5870:


GTX 470 has virtually the same minimum (and average) framerate as HD 5870:


GTX 470 has 10% higher minimum framerate than HD 5870:


GTX 470 has 20% higher minimum framerate than HD 5870:


GTX 470 has 5% higher minimum framerate than HD 5870:


GTX 470 has 40% (!) higher minimum framerate than HD 5870:


GTX 470 has 75% (!) higher minimum framerate than HD 5870:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Madpistol
And lets not forget about power consumption either:
Yeah, let's not. GTX 470 SLI is within 10% of the idle and load power consumption of HD 5870 Crossfire in the Hardware Canucks review, as mentioned above. Not too shabby for a card with a huge die size and 3 billion transistors. All with a much lower average selling price, in addition to what is arguably a more robust, feature-filled, and forward-looking graphics/compute architecture.

On a side note, it is getting tiring to hear all the negativity from the armchair critics here on the NVIDIA GF100 forum, many whom seem to own HD 5870/5970 and don't appear to give a rat's @$$ about these new Geforce GTX 4xx cards.
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Old 04-14-10, 10:55 PM   #247
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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More fuel for the fire...keep it up.

Look,the benchmarks are what they are,the power mesurements were made while the cards(aand the entire system for that matter) are running under load in those videos i posted,and yes,some here expected that fermi actually made a fight of it against the HD5970 cards,and it's not happening and i stated that several times and well before the official reviews were released,but after the late january deep dive articles posted on websites regarding the technical aspects of the GF100 architecture in a gaming environment,it cleared things up except for the final clocks....


The tech report was almost on the nose for the base clock speeds,stating they'd be around 725Mhz,but with all 512 shaders enabled,which turned out not to be the case in performance terms unfortunately,but ask yourself just how much power would the card use with all 512 shaders enabled?


It simply didn't have the fillrate,or memory bandwith,or texturing power,or shading ability to pull it off,no matter how many optimizations are done at the driver level,and the only techical aspect that's much more powerfull is the tesselation ability and that's it,so Nvidia users have every right to be pissed off alright,but at Nvidia itself for clearly stating that fermi would be much better than Cypress and failing to deliver on that in a convincing manner,even after a 6 month wait.


Like it or hate it,that's the general consensus....
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Old 04-14-10, 11:00 PM   #248
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

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For roughly the same amount of power and heat that the HD 5870 Crossfire can generate (within 10%), there's GTX 470 SLI cards which offer better performance than HD 5970, in addition to an arguably more robust graphics/compute feature set, arguably better image quality with 32x CSAA mode, and far better performance with future games too based on extreme tesselation benchmarks.




Talk about an HD 5970 owner grasping for straws, my goodness. I doubt that many GTX 480 owner's or soon-to-be owner's have even given a second thought to HD 5970, and if they have, then I'm sure they would rather go for GTX 470 SLI instead now.

True,it is pretty close between both on power and overall performance,but the HD5970 got released 6 months ago in case you hadn't noticed,and there is no way in hell i'd wait 6 months for Nvidia to get it's act together,not when ATI released something as good as the HD5970 cards.


A few weeks,maybe even 2 months,but not half a year....No way in hell.
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Old 04-14-10, 11:07 PM   #249
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

I don't give a crap about the general consensus...what I do care about is how you and others (you know who you are) turn a harmless "Are you buying Femi" thread into the same old argument over and over...

Therefore I think its time for your vacation again.

Now....Stay on the topic of this thread please, if you want to argue ATi v NV, take it to pm's. Stop turning these threads into this garbage.

Please carry on.
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Old 04-14-10, 11:15 PM   #250
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I like Lee63
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Old 04-14-10, 11:22 PM   #251
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

Post removed.

I don't want to argue this any further, and people are entitled to their opinions.

That... and I see lee means business.
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Old 04-14-10, 11:35 PM   #252
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Default Re: Are you going to buy Fermi?

I did buy Fermi, in fact I bought two. The second one has been sitting on my desk and I've been going back and forth on whether or not to open it or sell it.

I think tomorrow I'm going to crack it open and give SLI a swing. Who knows, I might have to grab me a new monitor and some 3d glasses as well.
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