Go Back   nV News Forums > Graphics Card Forums > NVIDIA GeForce 7, 8, And 9 Series

Newegg Daily Deals

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-24-03, 09:08 PM   #73
Skuzzy
Bit Bumper
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Here
Posts: 782
Default

OT: Anyone wanna pitch in and buy digiw an air conditioner? Might help.

Hopefully my little bit of work I am doing will solve a lot of the speculation over what is right and wrong. Be patient.
Skuzzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-03, 09:13 PM   #74
Ruined
Registered User
 
Ruined's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,447
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
You keep setting them up, I'll keep knocking 'em home.
You didn't 'knock them home,' as all the points I listed can't be rationally debunked. All you managed to do was create three new, different arguments based on your views that are related in content to my views.
__________________
We're all in it together.

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6700 2.66GHz CPU | Intel G965WH mobo | 8GB (4x2GB) DDR2-667mhz CAS5 RAM (1066MHz FSB) | BFG GeForce 285 GTX OC 1GB | Dell E228WFP 22" DVI-HDCP LCD Monitor | 1TB Western Digital RE3 SATA2 Main Drive | 500GBx2 Western Digital RE3 SATA2 Scratch Drives in RAID0 | Western Digital RE3 1TB SATA2 Media Drive | External 2TB Western Digital MyBook Backup Drive | Adaptec eSATA 3.0gbps PCI-E interface | Sandisk External 12-in-1 Flash Card Reader | LG GGC-H20L HD DVD/BD reader, DVD writer | LG GGW-H20L HD DVD/BD reader, DVD/BD writer | Microsoft E4000 Ergonomic Keyboard | Logitech Trackman Wheel | Antec P182 ATX Case | Thermaltake ToughPower XT 850w modular PSU | KRK RP-8 Rokit Studio Monitors | Windows Vista Ultimate x64
Ruined is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-03, 09:27 PM   #75
aapo
Registered User
 
aapo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Finland
Posts: 273
Default Re: I love happy endings.

Quote:
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
But it doesn't apply to this debate, he's trying to side-track the issue.
You're right, maybe I should also address the real topic: I find the B3D thing mentioned before pretty amusing. Especially the nVidia benchmarking manual bragging about the superior IQ of the FX5900 is rather awkward given the exe renaming trick. Talk about getting caught with your pants down, this is more like getting caught beating your meat! Embarassing!
__________________
no sig.
aapo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-03, 09:30 PM   #76
extreme_dB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 337
Default

Hey Ruined, you're relying on [H]'s article as the basis for your argument, but those who disagree with you feel it is flawed.

It comes down to what each individual person prefers. If a person who's tried both cards can notice a difference (surfhurelydude), isn't that enough to refute your argument? I suppose it depends on whether you believe him or anyone else who makes such claims, but seeing how this has become a big issue, shouldn't that tell you that customers do want the choice of full image quality if possible?

For people who don't know how to tweak their cards for the best overall gaming experience, Nvidia can include the currently forced tri/bi mode as just another option to choose from. What's the point of including a maximum quality option that's not really maximum quality, aside from gaining an edge in benchmarks?
extreme_dB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-03, 09:33 PM   #77
digitalwanderer
 
digitalwanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Highland, IN USA
Posts: 4,944
Default Re: Re: I love happy endings.

Quote:
Originally posted by aapo
You're right, maybe I should also address the real topic: I find the B3D thing mentioned before pretty amusing. Especially the nVidia benchmarking manual bragging about the superior IQ of the FX5900 is rather awkward given the exe renaming trick. Talk about getting caught with your pants down, this is more like getting caught beating your meat! Embarassing!
Oh no, that's just a bug...

I totally agree, that's gonna be a whopper they come out with to explain away that one!
__________________
[SIZE=1][I]"It was very important to us that NVIDIA did not know exactly where to aim. As a result they seem to have over-engineered in some aspects creating a power-hungry monster which is going to be very expensive for them to manufacture. We have a beautifully balanced piece of hardware that beats them on pure performance, cost, scalability, future mobile relevance, etc. That's all because they didn't know what to aim at."
-R.Huddy[/I] [/SIZE]
digitalwanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-03, 10:02 PM   #78
StealthHawk
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruined
I don't have an R9800PRO to side by side compare with an FX5900 on different monitors, so I can't personally prove that one card looks inferior to the other. I am going by HOCP's controlled A/B test, which clearly you disagree with, and was just making the point that if an optimization is minor enough to be only noticable when studying screenshots as opposed to playing, then I wouldn't consider it of significance. i.e. if you disagreed with the rationale behind the statement I posted, you'd be saying that IQ issues that you cannot see during gameplay are somehow harmful towards the game's image quality when you are playing.
Sigh. I am saying that neither you nor Brent can say whether or not I can see the issues. What do you not understand about that? Whether or not Brent can see the issues has absolutely NOTHING to do whether whether Joe Blow can see them.

Quote:
Re: Brent saying he doesn't see a difference while playing. That statement is the same as a reviewer who says they think ATI's 4x AA looks better than Nvidia's 4x AA. In both cases, they are subjective, simply because all IQ evaluations of in-game action are subjective. I don't find it damaging, I find it the norm in IQ evaluations. You have every right to disagree with Brent, but that was his judgement when he had the opportunity to evaluate the cards side by side in a controlled testing environment. It doesn't mean he is automatically wrong, nor does it mean you are automatically wrong if you disagree. However, you probably should at least take his opinion into account - that even a pro reviewer looking for a difference could not detect it during actual gameplay. Brent never said 'HardOCP is right, every other site is wrong,' he just evaluated the situation at ATI's request, and posted his findings. It is your choice to agree or disagree with them.
No! He does not say "I cannot see them." He says "you cannot see them." Do you see where he goes from specific to generalization? Do you not see the flaw in making that leap? He is telling me and everyone else that because he cannot see the issue that we cannot either. This is what he says:
Quote:
1.) UT2K3 is a first person shooter. You run around real fast fragging people, you donít exactly stand around to smell the roses. While you are doing this constant running around you are concentrating on so many other things that texture filtering between mipmaps is the least of your worries. Obviously there is a point at which the banding could be bad enough that it would bother you while playing the game. However, the transition between mipmaps is not something you will notice during gameplay with either card.
I bet Brent can't tell the difference between ATI's Performance and Quality AF either


I cannot believe you just said that not only is it good that users cannot use real trilinear in one game, but NVIDIA should never give us the option. If what NVIDIA is doing is so good, why don't they just do it across the board so it applies to everything?


Here is another quote from Brent's great article(IYO):
Quote:
This article focuses on the quality of filtering the GeForceFX series of video cards are producing in Unreal Tournament 2003 with 44.03 drivers. Specifically Trilinear Filtering but touches on Anisotropic Filtering as well.
Too bad he never compares Trilinear Anisotropic Filtering to Hacked Tri/Bi Anisotropic Filtering.

I don't see how you can keep ignoring this fact. Not only does he not compare NVIDIA's tri/bi method to full trilinear, he then makes the claim that full trilinear is unnecessary. How can you defend such an unsubstantiated claim/article?

Here is what Brent compared for those who stll are unsure(as you apparently are):
1) He compares NVIDIA and ATI with AF off. Here Brent compares NVIDIA's tri/bi with ATI's tri.
2) He compares 8x AF on NVIDIA and ATI. Here Brent compares NVIDIA's tri/bi to ATI's tri/bi. Note that ATI was not using full trilinear AF, although I'm sure Brent wants his readers to think so.

Trilinear AF was not enabled on ATI cards. This is siginificant. There is no control being compared to. Every person with a brain knows that in an experiment you need a control. Hence when Brent claims that tri/bi is better than tri it is completely baseless.
What should accurately be done is to use an older driver set where NVIDIA uses full trilinear AF and compare that to NVIDIA's newer filtering anyway.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-03, 10:51 PM   #79
digitalwanderer
 
digitalwanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Highland, IN USA
Posts: 4,944
Default

Anyone know what ATi's stance on the [T] write-up is? Do they have grounds to threaten 'em again since they just tried to dodge the issue? (I'm just asking, I'm not flaming...I really have no clue on this one.)
__________________
[SIZE=1][I]"It was very important to us that NVIDIA did not know exactly where to aim. As a result they seem to have over-engineered in some aspects creating a power-hungry monster which is going to be very expensive for them to manufacture. We have a beautifully balanced piece of hardware that beats them on pure performance, cost, scalability, future mobile relevance, etc. That's all because they didn't know what to aim at."
-R.Huddy[/I] [/SIZE]
digitalwanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-03, 07:30 AM   #80
Ruined
Registered User
 
Ruined's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,447
Default

Looks like this will be even more of a non-issue once the next dets are released...
__________________
We're all in it together.

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6700 2.66GHz CPU | Intel G965WH mobo | 8GB (4x2GB) DDR2-667mhz CAS5 RAM (1066MHz FSB) | BFG GeForce 285 GTX OC 1GB | Dell E228WFP 22" DVI-HDCP LCD Monitor | 1TB Western Digital RE3 SATA2 Main Drive | 500GBx2 Western Digital RE3 SATA2 Scratch Drives in RAID0 | Western Digital RE3 1TB SATA2 Media Drive | External 2TB Western Digital MyBook Backup Drive | Adaptec eSATA 3.0gbps PCI-E interface | Sandisk External 12-in-1 Flash Card Reader | LG GGC-H20L HD DVD/BD reader, DVD writer | LG GGW-H20L HD DVD/BD reader, DVD/BD writer | Microsoft E4000 Ergonomic Keyboard | Logitech Trackman Wheel | Antec P182 ATX Case | Thermaltake ToughPower XT 850w modular PSU | KRK RP-8 Rokit Studio Monitors | Windows Vista Ultimate x64
Ruined is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 07-25-03, 07:41 AM   #81
Hanners
Elite Bastard
 
Hanners's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 984
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruined
Looks like this will be even more of a non-issue once the next dets are released...
It's going to be interesting to see what settings [H] use with these new drivers if they do indeed have the noted option.

If they use the full trilinear option on nVidia cards, then they are going back on their statement that ATi and nVidia's filtering quality as they stand right now is the same, and are therefore no longer doing an apples-to-apples comparison from an IQ standpoint (which is what they are supposedly striving to do). If they don't use the option, then they'll be criticised from not using trilinear on both cards. Looks like [H] have boxed themselves into a corner on this one.
__________________
Owner / Editor-in-Chief - Elite Bastards
Hanners is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-03, 07:43 AM   #82
StealthHawk
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruined
Looks like this will be even more of a non-issue once the next dets are released...
Of course once NVIDIA allows full trilinear in their drivers it will be a non-issue. The fact that they didn't was the issue.

Thanks for trying to sidestep things though, always appreciated. When you can't defend your position the common tactic is to get people to forget about it by bringing something else up.

The obvious question being when exactly are these new Dets supposed to come out

That post looks more like Kyle having his usual ego trip to me. For someone who thinks they're so self important I can't understand for the life of me why he thinks [H] reporting on issues without color commentary won't change anything* Wow, now not only is he claiming responsibility for being our "savior," he's claiming knowledge of the issue beforehand! I wonder how that is **

*Kyle has stated that he didn't report NVIDIA's previous issues because he felt that no matter what he said about it NVIDIA would not change their ways.

**Cearly Kyle knew nothing about UT2003 issue beforehand.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-03, 07:45 AM   #83
StealthHawk
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Hanners
If they use the full trilinear option on nVidia cards, then they are going back on their statement that ATi and nVidia's filtering quality as they stand right now is the same, and are therefore no longer doing an apples-to-apples comparison from an IQ standpoint (which is what they are supposedly striving to do). If they don't use the option, then they'll be criticised from not using trilinear on both cards. Looks like [H] have boxed themselves into a corner on this one.
I thought [H] said, either in an article or in the forums, that they were aware they weren't performing an apples to apples comparison.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-03, 08:07 AM   #84
Deathlike2
Driver Reinstall Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Nowhere Near NVidia or NVNews
Posts: 336
Default

The almost sounds like ATI and their Quack incident a year ago.

The difference is ATI admits it, tells us they will fix it, and fixes it... whereas NVidia admits it, tell us they'll look into the "bugs", and hasn't promised a fix for anything they've done..

Wow... can you believe that?
__________________
PR = crap
War Against FUD
What is FUD? - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9267/fuddef.html
Deathlike2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NVIDIA Responds to Reports of Kepler V-Sync Stuttering Issue Rieper NVIDIA GeForce 600 Series 13 03-03-13 11:56 PM
Gorgeous Unreal Engine 4 brings direct programming, indirect lighting News Archived News Items 0 06-08-12 10:20 PM
Star Wars 1313 running on Unreal Engine 3 on PC at E3, will be linear and light on Je News Archived News Items 0 06-08-12 06:20 AM
Intel's Ivy Bridge Core i7 3770K Overheating Issue Detailed News Archived News Items 0 05-16-12 11:40 AM
Does anyone like the cool water reflection effect in unreal 2003? imtim83 Gaming Central 15 09-20-02 11:18 PM

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1998 - 2014, nV News.