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Old 07-20-10, 02:50 PM   #13
Are_
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Default Re: is the nvidia driver falling behind?

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Originally Posted by TheBlackCat View Post
Nvidia's settings, on the other hand, are lost on reboot unless you make changes to you Xorg.conf file, and such settings are global and require root access. There is no user-level settings at all.
Code:
$ cat .kde4/Autostart/nvidia.sh
#!/bin/bash                                                                   
nvidia-settings --load-config-only
I think this should work for your needs. If you are not using KDE try to put it on your .bashrc
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Old 07-20-10, 02:51 PM   #14
xianthax
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Default Re: is the nvidia driver falling behind?

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Originally Posted by TheBlackCat View Post
Nvidia's settings, on the other hand, are lost on reboot unless you make changes to you Xorg.conf file, and such settings are global and require root access. There is no user-level settings at all.
In the nvidia settings tool, go down to 'nvidia-settings Configuration', click 'save current configuration', save the file (.nvidia-settings-rc) in your home folder.

Add "nvidia-settings -l" to your startup applications in whatever desktop environment you use.

Done, per user settings that are applied at log in for that user and of course persist through reboot.
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Old 07-20-10, 03:14 PM   #15
kRogue
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Default Re: is the nvidia driver falling behind?

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Might be that other DEs do not use advanced graphics, and these advanced operations are poorly implemented by the driver.
GNOME+COMPIZ looks pretty snazzy, wobbly windows (if you go for that kind of thing), transparency, etc... and it performs well. My brutal opinion is that is comes down to Qt. Find a Linux GUI app/environment that does not use Qt and performs badly. Firefox's pixmap issue is below, but funny thing, Chrome seems plenty fast.

Quote:
Are you referring to the GL backends that are still marked as experimental and which the folks at Qt strongly discourage people from using?
Where is it marked in Qt docs "don't use"? You will use the GL backends whenever you make a QGLWidget and want to draw to it via QPainter, or for that matter, use QGLFrameBufferObject, then you will be using GL (usually 2) backend. The GL backends have been around since QGLWidget, which has been around for a very, very long time. To give you an idea of how bad the GL backends are and have been: lets talk about clipping. Qt 4.5.x both GL1 and GL2 backends and any version of Qt GL1 backend clipping is implemented, and this is rich: as an array of screen aligned rectangles. Worse, they used the depth buffer to do clipping (essentially reducing a 24bit buffer to 1bit). Even worse, to set the clipping, Qt draws the rectangles, not via correct setting of projection matrices and correct setting of depth testing, but as, cough: glClear for each rectangle. As soon as you have something rotated that has clipping, we are talking hundreds of glClear's. No one having a single clue in using GL would do that. The more recent GL2 backends (and only GL2) starting in Qt 4.6 correctly use the stencil buffer and "calculate the clipping zone" via stencil test and ops on the GPU, but that should have been a when GL1 backends were made (the clipping via stencil test/op works just fine since TNT).. and getting into rotated text..sighs... really ugly and horribly slower.

Since, I am going into Qt's failings and I have to deal with it so much so often, let me share some more which is moderately off topic now:

Qt has some Qt wrappers over the GL API. Let me list some of it's failings:
(1) buffer object wrapping has no support for GL3 style flags when mapping also where to bind buffer objects is handled as an enum, last time I checked they are missing all GL3 specifi enums

(2) EGL. Qt managed to make a mess of this. When you build Qt you must choose "which" GL Qt will use: GL, GL ES1 or GL ES2. Under EGL, one can create, within the same program, GL, GL ES1 and GL ES2 contexts, and even have them share data. Qt lost this functionality. On the market now, there are plenty of devices supporting both GL ES1 and GL ES2.

(3) QtGLFramebufferObject has had a bug since forever for GL ES (1 and 2) environment in getting a stencil buffer, the reason the bug is there: they are too lazy to take the 2 days to test the fixes. Let's not talk about MRT for that matter, ok.

(4) The last time I looked into there shader "pipeline" they had munged it: most filtering algorithms require fetching neighboring texels, the correct way to do this is to set specify all texture co-ordinates in the vertex shader. There infrastructure does not support this, so you need to calculate this in the fragment shader (which is not only worse performance wise, once we get into non-orthogonal projections the calculation is worse)

(5) for QML, the performance of the Qt GL was so bad, that drawing QML elements is handled as follows: content is drawn to a QImage (or QPixmap) which is then uploaded to a GL texture and drawn... dynamic QML content then murders bandwidth (the worst sinner is animated text) Can you imagine what happens on portable devices?

(6) rotated text is dog slow and looks horribly with a GL backend unless the QGLWidget (or FBO) is created with MSAA, with MSAA is looks better but is even slower, MSAA is heck of expensive. Horrible thing is that drawing rotated text is a joke in GL and to keep it reasonable AA ...just blit the freetype rendered glyphs as a texture... but not Qt.. they got it into their heads that it must be rendered as "a path" whenever the text is rotated which is ugly and slow 9/10... even if the rotation is 90 degrees.

and there are more! But enough is enough I think.

Quote:
Except that the problems only occur on Nvidia drivers, and they are not unique to KDE or Qt (Firefox has been having a lot of the same problems on Nvidia with Linux as KDE/Qt).
The firefox issue is really a firefox bug, here is why: an application can query how big a pixmap can be and still be hardware accelerated, for webpages with lots of pixel area, firefox renders then to one big pixmap, ignoring what the hardware tells them: "make it too big and go to slow path".

There is something people need to realize: on Linux, NVIDIA has by far the best GL support in their driver than anyone. None of the open source drivers come even close to a fraction of what NVIDIA there. In spite of the fact that ATI/AMD released the majority of the hardware specs for their cards, the open source drivers for that hardware give horribly under whelming GL... the proprietary GL drivers for ATI/AMD have some a long way since AMD bought ATI, but they still are no match for NVIDIA. Don't get me started on the crapiness of DRI and DRI2 either. Just so you know, the NVIDIA driver bypasses them completely and for a really good reason, the why is technical and I am spitting enough bile already.

Quote:
Except the windows 7 interface, if I recall correctly, supports user-level settings that are remembers across sessions (as do standard xrandr GUI's in Linux). That means you can set your display configuration for each user independently without administrator access and still have them when you reboot.
I have had nothing but grief from Window's 7 interface for this laptop.. I want to clone between the laptop and a monitor, Windows 7 interface is pain, the Linux interface is heck-a-easy. Windows attempts to auto guess the correct thing, and for me a great deal of the time it is the wrong thing. I don't even want to get into what happens when I hook u VR goggles. There is a way to do per user setting with nvidia-settings without needing root access: nvidia-settings --config=~/.nvidia-settings-rc --load-config-only

Edit: while typing my bile looks like lots of people piped in the same wisdom for nvidia-settings.
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Old 07-20-10, 07:42 PM   #16
xazero
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Default Re: is the nvidia driver falling behind?

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Originally Posted by hl_ View Post
These are just buzzwords, nothing more.
well, do you know what are the benefits KMS represents?

is not only about fancy boot experience (but it really make it look more polished) but it also means faster boot, fast suspend/resume (this is really important) and native resolution/accelerated graphics without X (and this also means native text resolution in ttys)

so i believe KMS is as important as Xrandr. as for KDE, i think nvidia really should work to make it work properly (dont care whose fault it is but its broken) . its a shame that intel and ati (in its most recent driver) work better than my expensive nvidia card.
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Old 07-20-10, 08:32 PM   #17
Alejandro Nova
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Default Re: is the nvidia driver falling behind?

AFAIK KMS requires a driver with a GPL2 compatible license, since the driver links to the kernel. kRogue, I really suggest that you better communicate upstream with the Qt guys if you have any rant to make. You appear to have enough technical skills to face these kinds of problems.
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Old 07-20-10, 09:04 PM   #18
xazero
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Default Re: is the nvidia driver falling behind?

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Originally Posted by Alejandro Nova View Post
AFAIK KMS requires a driver with a GPL2 compatible license
yes it does, but i think nvidia can find a workaround for that, maybe a LGPL kernel module that pulls the proprietary driver in the kernel or something.
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Old 07-20-10, 09:21 PM   #19
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Default Re: is the nvidia driver falling behind?

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Originally Posted by xazero View Post
well, do you know what are the benefits KMS represents?
Yes. I know KMS or Gallium are more than buzzwords, but they're often used as buzzwords, like they are some kind of magic fairy dust.

"You have to implement KMS/Gallium... because... well, it's the newest ****!"

Recommending NVidia to use/port to Gallium is downright stupid actually.
Also, I think a few people have already pointed out that NVidia implements most of what KMS constitutes, except for framebuffer integration.
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Old 07-21-10, 09:02 AM   #20
wantilles
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Default Re: is the nvidia driver falling behind?

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Originally Posted by xazero View Post
is it just me or the nvidia driver is rapidly getting outdated?
It is just you.

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Originally Posted by xazero View Post
Gallium3D
Only needed in the open-source drivers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xazero View Post
KMS
Completely superfluous and useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xazero View Post
XRandR 1.2 (and 1.3)
Completely superfluous and useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xazero View Post
XRender
Completely superfluous and useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xazero View Post
performance (i.e. kde4 is still slow)
You are having distro-specific problems and/or you do not know how to properly setup your machine.

Completely superfluous and useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xazero View Post
...we need things like KDE4 working properly...
KDE is working properly.

You are having distro-specific problems and/or you do not know how to properly setup your machine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xazero View Post
...and we just want to open the system settings to configure a secondary screen...
It is an "exotic", non-mainstream, and extremely rarely-used feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xazero View Post
...or the rotation...
It is an "exotic", non-mainstream, and extremely rarely-used feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xazero View Post
...we want our plymouth screen working.
If you want some useless, superfluous, pointless fireworks, just go up on your residence's roof, and setup some.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xazero View Post
is just my personal opinion, what do you guys think?
It is just your personal opinion.



PS: For almost 6 years, nVidia has been supporting its hardware in all UNIX OSes in an exemplary way. It is how is should have been, for any hardware company that considers itself a serious one - not like ATi, for example.
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Old 07-21-10, 09:21 AM   #21
adamk75
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Default Re: is the nvidia driver falling behind?

Sorry, but the ability to rotate only one monitor on a dual head card, driving a single screen across two monitors, while maintaining the composite extension, is not "exotic" or "non-mainstream". It's only extremely rarely used on nvidia because it's just not supported.

Adam

EDIT: Also there are more UNIX OSes than just linux, freebsd, and Solaris.
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Old 07-21-10, 09:57 AM   #22
gradinaruvasile
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Default Re: is the nvidia driver falling behind?

Anybody tried ati/intel/nvidia side by side? I did and nvidia kick the living **** out of the others by feature support and stability (on Ubuntu and Debian).
I use nvidia on all my computers (one onboard, one laptop, one PCIE desktop) and i can tell you that they are absolutely stable and all functions (suspend/resume/hibernate) work flawlessly on all 3 computers (running Debian Squeeze + the nvidia provided driver).
The intel/radeon driver cannot even touch nvidia in OpenGL support (games etc).
Ok, maybe 2 sec slower than KMS for VT switching but i can absolutely live with that ( i dont do that all day). Also startup speed+lack of flickering doesnt bother me (as i reboot once a few days).
If it aint broken dont fix it...
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Old 07-21-10, 10:19 AM   #23
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Default Re: is the nvidia driver falling behind?

@wantilles: It is not only xazero with slow KDE4 (or QT4, because even non-KDE4, but QT4 apps are slow). I also have this since KDE4.0, and I don't think that it is distro-specific(I tried on openSUSE from 11.1 to 11.3 and Slackware 12.2, 13.0, 13.1). I know how to configure KDE to work faster, but it is still slow. Also running QT4 apps with "-graphicssystem raster" helps a little bit, but...
I have nothing against Nvidia and their (best) Linux support, but this issue is very old, and irritating
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Old 07-21-10, 10:42 AM   #24
wantilles
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Default Re: is the nvidia driver falling behind?

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Originally Posted by miki100 View Post
I know how to configure KDE to work faster, but it is still slow.
Nothing can be either "slow" or "fast".

Everything is relative.

It can be either "slower" or "faster".

What have you compared it to, and found it slower?

Quote:
Originally Posted by miki100 View Post
Also running QT4 apps with "-graphicssystem raster" helps a little bit, but...
I have made a package in my distro (Arch Linux amd64) of qt (qt-raster), built with raster graphics system as default.

I didn't see any difference, either to the better or to the worse.

However I stopped using it, because ksnapshot has an issue with it. When it is invoked for the current window (ksnapshot --current) it does not draw the current window on its preview.
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