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Old 09-04-03, 04:34 PM   #401
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Well...........nothing was said about the issues with the 5900 during the webcast. All I know it takes 80 days to process a .13 gpu.
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Old 09-04-03, 06:17 PM   #402
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I know it's pointless to speculate as to the cause of the flicker, given that Nvidia and it's crack (crack if we disregard their crappy PS2.0 implementation...and the cooling...and the flicker obviously) team of engineers cannot fix the problem in a few weeks. But reading half the crap that's being posted here by people claiming to be almost inside Nvidia we may as well just wonder out loud.

For me there are three main features I have noticed:

1) blinky.exe triggers the flicker at will as do most 3D apps with bright displays.
2) DVI digtal connection to an LCD does not suffer from the flicker.
3) Moving my card between several machinesm, with different everything, from CPU to monitors and it did not change the flicker at all.

This suggests:

1) The problem is caused by the card, given that blinky.exe is not executing some really crazy code causing the CPU/MB/RAM/PSU/HD to generate any unusual EMI.

2) The problem is probably on the card itself as opposed to the GPU, as the data in the framebuffer is absolutely fine given that the LCD display is fine.

3) The problem is very unlikely given that I have tried the same card in 3 very different machines (as have many others) which would not produce exactly the same EMI.

So here is my paragraph of complete speculation (pending the real reason and some grovelling apologies from Nvidia...or one of their close firends):

Only a fugging idiot would continue to say that the problem is caused by environmental EMI alone. Given that almost all GFFX5900U are built to the reference design, it all goes to point to a problem with the DAC part of the board, perhaps it is caused by some unclean power on the board and is only noticable when the power drain of the GPU is more significant i.e. when doing 3D work. As someone mentioned about there being less capacitors on the release board that the prototypes, and with the noisy caps when using a lower spec PSU it all goes to point to a design that is just working at the margins of failiure, which would explain why many cards function perfectly well. I just hope the Nvidia fix doesn't further compromise the performance of this already underperforming board.

Just my 17.50 (the change I had left over from the 400 I spent on this lame racehorse).
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Old 09-04-03, 06:40 PM   #403
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Quote:
Originally posted by _Pablo
Only a fugging idiot would continue to say that the problem is caused by environmental EMI alone.
Who said it was EMI alone?

There many factors playing a role here...
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Old 09-04-03, 06:43 PM   #404
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Morrow,

Is one brand better than another with regards to this issue? Should I just go with the cheapest Ultra I can find?

Thanks,
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Old 09-04-03, 06:47 PM   #405
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Quote:
Originally posted by _Pablo
I know it's pointless to speculate as to the cause of the flicker, given that Nvidia and it's crack (crack if we disregard their crappy PS2.0 implementation...and the cooling...and the flicker obviously) team of engineers cannot fix the problem in a few weeks. But reading half the crap that's being posted here by people claiming to be almost inside Nvidia we may as well just wonder out loud.

For me there are three main features I have noticed:

1) blinky.exe triggers the flicker at will as do most 3D apps with bright displays.
2) DVI digtal connection to an LCD does not suffer from the flicker.
3) Moving my card between several machinesm, with different everything, from CPU to monitors and it did not change the flicker at all.

This suggests:

1) The problem is caused by the card, given that blinky.exe is not executing some really crazy code causing the CPU/MB/RAM/PSU/HD to generate any unusual EMI.

2) The problem is probably on the card itself as opposed to the GPU, as the data in the framebuffer is absolutely fine given that the LCD display is fine.

3) The problem is very unlikely given that I have tried the same card in 3 very different machines (as have many others) which would not produce exactly the same EMI.

So here is my paragraph of complete speculation (pending the real reason and some grovelling apologies from Nvidia...or one of their close firends):

Only a fugging idiot would continue to say that the problem is caused by environmental EMI alone. Given that almost all GFFX5900U are built to the reference design, it all goes to point to a problem with the DAC part of the board, perhaps it is caused by some unclean power on the board and is only noticable when the power drain of the GPU is more significant i.e. when doing 3D work. As someone mentioned about there being less capacitors on the release board that the prototypes, and with the noisy caps when using a lower spec PSU it all goes to point to a design that is just working at the margins of failiure, which would explain why many cards function perfectly well. I just hope the Nvidia fix doesn't further compromise the performance of this already underperforming board.

Just my 17.50 (the change I had left over from the 400 I spent on this lame racehorse).
Excellent post btw. I believe you are very close. I really don't think that it is on the margin of failure though. Otherwise why would it be rock solid through the dvi port only.

I am more thinking the voltage regulated through the 15 pin port is the problem. I am not sure if a bios upgrade can fix that though if that is the case.

Is anyone using a pure digital connection have the flicker?
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Old 09-04-03, 07:23 PM   #406
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Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by _Pablo
Only a fugging idiot would continue to say that the problem is caused by environmental EMI alone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Who said it was EMI alone?

There many factors playing a role here...
I don't understand what you are trying to do here, with little tid bits of this and that !
If you have any useful information, post it !
It's bad enough getting the run-around from Nvidia.
Just my $530 worth.
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Old 09-04-03, 08:02 PM   #407
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Amen!
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Old 09-04-03, 08:19 PM   #408
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jericho
Excellent post btw. I believe you are very close. I really don't think that it is on the margin of failure though. Otherwise why would it be rock solid through the dvi port only.

I am more thinking the voltage regulated through the 15 pin port is the problem. I am not sure if a bios upgrade can fix that though if that is the case.

Is anyone using a pure digital connection have the flicker?
Agreed, that's the kind of thing I meant, that it's the Digital to Analogue part of the card that is at fault. Given the buzzing and screeching some people are seeing with less generous PSUs there do seem to be other power related issues. If these suspicions are correct, then we will find no-one with a pure digital connection who is seeing the flicker/strobe problem.

Indeed I am suspecting that a simple fix (without side effects i.e lower performance) is a bit too much to hope for, especially given the amount of time that has elapsed since Nvidia agreed that there was indeed a problem.

Combined with the poor PS2.0 performance, Nvidias have a PR disaster on their hands with their latest high-end products, so I'd have though that a fast answer or at least regular feedback and reassurances would have been essential in order to fight the fire.

As it is I feel burnt and even my fear of "Worlds Worst Drivers" (Not the FOX TV ones, the OLD ATi ones) is not enought to stop me recommending a 9800Pro over a 5900U.
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Old 09-04-03, 08:55 PM   #409
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morrow
Who said it was EMI alone?

There many factors playing a role here...
"We are under the impression it is a noise issue, not a graphics card issue and is system specific." Brian Burke 08-06-2003 NVNews.

Mr Burke has chosen not to cite any other source of the problem since this orginal post.

If you are in the know about the issue but are somehow restricted to share your knowledge, then it would show more integrity for you to simply remain quiet, as opposed to posting veiled suggestions of insider knowledge in what I can only assume are attempts enhance your reputation.
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Old 09-05-03, 02:16 AM   #410
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What they said in the presentation today was that:

1) NV40 won't be out until the spring and will be made by IBM.

2) There will be a new card out this fall that is not the NV40. Its chip will ALSO be made by IBM. (This probably going to be the 5900SE series. Since the chip will be made by a totally different fab with a different process, there might be more difference than just clock speed. They just started production, so they may have had time to fix the flicker bugs.)

3) Existing Geforce, Xbox, and NForce chips will continue to be made by TSMC.

4) It takes 80 days to make ONE CHIP!! Profits are 28% on GFFX.

5) No mention on the flicker issue.

6) IBM is a lot better at making chips than TSMC. No surprises there!
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Old 09-05-03, 02:49 AM   #411
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thanks for the recap, Flavius.

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Old 09-05-03, 03:31 AM   #412
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Like I said in a previous post, Nvidia would not publically denounce their own own product... DOH!

I use the DVI connector on my GFX card a on a CRT display and I still get flicker....

There is a definite problem with power, as I HAVE proven this by replacing my bog-standard PSU with a lovely Antec Truepower 550 which solved my clicking noise issue with the card....... also improving performance!!

I have a feeling that we are going to be stuck with our dud cards....... seems odd to me that Nvidia have decided to goto a different chip maker..

1) It would be cheaper and quicker (production)!! Is this so they can lower the cost of the card? Is there going to be a price war included in the ATI/Nvidia war.. like AMD and Intel??

2) and/or have they discovered that the flicking/noise fault lies with the chipset???

I'll go with a 50/50 thang..... look out out for Cheapr Nvidia products in the near future.....

Only speculation but I do have a gut feeling we are not going to get any easy solution to our problems........ so lets stop speculating about BIOS and Driver updates to solve our problem, it goes deeper than this.

Those that come on here pretending to be in the frame with Nvidia, shut up. You do not support your arguments and are just waisting time.... with your bull****!

Isn't there an ATI forum for you ATI users... again go away and play elsewhere. I've read several post where you guys are just boasting and gloat about your ATI cards... the people I know on ATI cards suffer crashes, crappy gfx etc...... at least 4 of my mates have turned to Nvidia due to this and they'll never look back!! Yes, Nvidia have made a major boo boo with the FX series (or at least 5900), we all make mistakes.. I know I did spending the money on the card... but I'll stand by Nvidia for now.... I think i'll wait at least 6mnths before buying the NV40 though!!

Nuff said!
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Old 09-05-03, 03:55 AM   #413
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hmmm check this out...

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=11375

contrary to what the "nvidia official says", based on the majority of posts i have read here it appears that the 9800 does not have the same exact flicker problem as the fx5900 does... further posts indicate to me that the 9800 doesnt have a flicker problem at all!? am i wrong here or does it appear that "nvidia official" is wrong?

maybe if the two cards have some sort of different problem on each, maybe the "nvidia official" ment that they both have the same cause or source of the problem?

blah

and dont bother reading the 2nd half of that page, the rest is garbage (some of the editors there are 'unusual').. i do laugh though.... "might need to go back as far as Direct-X 5 [to fix the flicker problem]" ...... lol... though who knows, anything might fix it?


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Old 09-05-03, 05:48 AM   #414
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeffus
I use the DVI connector on my GFX card a on a CRT display and I still get flicker....
That is still an analogue connection, the DVI-I port on the card outputs both the digital signal and the analogue signal. Simply plugging it into a regular CRT just uses the analogue signal, the same as if you just plugged it into the DSUB.
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Old 09-05-03, 06:48 AM   #415
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Quote:
Originally posted by DuckMaestro
contrary to what the "nvidia official says", based on the majority of posts i have read here it appears that the 9800 does not have the same exact flicker problem as the fx5900 does... further posts indicate to me that the 9800 doesnt have a flicker problem at all!? am i wrong here or does it appear that "nvidia official" is wrong?
From what i've read on other boards, the problem seen on Radeon cards (and from the posts it looks like the earlier 9500/9700 as opposed to the latest 9600/9800 series) is described most frequently as rolling lines, which is certainly not the same problem we are seeing on GFFX5900U. Also they suggest that using the DVI->DSUB adapter fixes the problem doesn't apply to the GFFX5900U.

Of course Nvidia would love us to believe that the two problems are related so that their flagship product appears less flawed, that somehow these problems are somehow related to working on the fringes of uber graphics technology and are not simply by-products of insufficient testing. NVPR would be pumping out this message to spread FUD so that people warned about the problems on the GFFX5900U don't instantly switch to buying a 9800Pro because they've heard that both products have the same problem, but I think the recently confirmed poor PS2.0 performance will be driving people away in droves anyway.

Of course, I don't know the causes of either problem, so they may at some level have common causes but sadly for Nvidia (and ATi for that matter) two wrongs don't make a right.
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Old 09-05-03, 06:54 AM   #416
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Quote:
Originally posted by _Pablo
That is still an analogue connection, the DVI-I port on the card outputs both the digital signal and the analogue signal. Simply plugging it into a regular CRT just uses the analogue signal, the same as if you just plugged it into the DSUB.
Yes I'm well aware of that (but thanks for pointing it out???) I was mainly resonding to it being a power thing with the anologue port???
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Old 09-05-03, 09:33 AM   #417
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If it is just a power regulation problem then they should be able to adjust that with a rom bios upgrade just as you would with a motherboard bios. However, if it design or physical flaw then that may mean it is recall time.

The BFG card I have is supposed to have a lifetime warranty so if I have a problem at some point hopefully it will be taken care of.
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Old 09-05-03, 10:11 AM   #418
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They switched to IBM fab from TSMC because the 5900 series are .13 micron copper as opposed to previous .15 micro aluminum. IBM's proccess involves less steps and is more advanced and efficient than TSMC's, resulting in lower chip cost and faster chip production. Also, IBM *invented* copper chips, so....
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Old 09-05-03, 10:30 AM   #419
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This thread has been very informative and concerning at the same time. I was about to go out and spend $1000AUD on a FX ultra but for now I am keeping my cash.

With all the reports of great improvements by my friends and their Raedon cards and the 3.7 catalyst drivers released today..ATI is looking good.

I have owned every Nvidia card since day one, and have always been a Nvidiot fanboy, but the developments and apparent mistakes they have had/made with the FX5800 and the 5900, together with the *optimisations* and trilinear fiasco really really has turned me away from the company.

This thread was sort of the last nail in my consumer $$ coffin. I hope you current owners get looked after by Nvidia on this issue.

Good luck.
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Old 09-05-03, 11:19 AM   #420
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So is today the big day Morrow? Would be nice to see Nvidia release beta 50.00 dets and maybe a bios flash to the board OEM's- if that could help our problems. Probably wishful thinking. My 5900's will be going up on e-bay by Monday if we don't get a statement.
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Old 09-05-03, 11:28 AM   #421
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Default BFG cards

Does anyone have any problems with BFG cards? My very unscientific observations seem to indicate that people with BFG cards do not have problems. Can someone prove/disprove this? Thanks!
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Old 09-05-03, 12:08 PM   #422
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Quote:
Originally posted by maxpower
Does anyone have any problems with BFG cards? My very unscientific observations seem to indicate that people with BFG cards do not have problems. Can someone prove/disprove this? Thanks!
This should help:
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...threadid=16004
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Old 09-05-03, 12:18 PM   #423
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Thanks Volt. That seems to confirm that there is no problem with any BFG cards (based solely on those posts of course). Also, the posts in that thread where no flickering was present is in the overwhelming majority. Only a handful of posts said to have flickering.
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Old 09-05-03, 01:54 PM   #424
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Quote:
Originally posted by maxpower
Does anyone have any problems with BFG cards? My very unscientific observations seem to indicate that people with BFG cards do not have problems. Can someone prove/disprove this? Thanks!

Had a BFG 5900NU beauitful card but unfortunaty suffered the same symptoms. No noise from the scroll wheel but noise using Suura.bat. Also used Blinky.exe and Morrowind. I could'nt stand the flicker in morrowind tried everything to get rid of it, nothing worked. So that was it!





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Old 09-05-03, 02:12 PM   #425
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Let's forget about trying to find a brand that works. It doesn't exist. Testing at this point is a waste... all the testing that can be done has been done. There is something wrong with the power circuitry in the card and how it affects the analog signals originating in the card. Besides pure digital signal, the only other solution has been to remove the additional 4 pin power connector. At this point there are only a few things we can do:

1) RMA or hold off buying 59xx and wait for NVidia to give us official information... something that is looking less likely every day, probably because they realize the enormity of their blunder.

2) Buy the 5900 SE cards coming out this fall, with freshly made GPUs from IBM and hopefully better board circuitry.

3) If 5900 SE is still flickery, wait for NV40 in the spring to fix this. (I'm not that patient.)

4) Switch to ATI and deal with their continued buggy drivers but SOLID picture.

Personally, I am going for option 2, followed by option 4.
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