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Old 08-08-03, 09:12 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by volt
I don't quite understand your position here.

I have never, ever experienced any sort of flickering (described in my above post) with any of the NVIDIA GeForce graphics cards except for NV35 (and I've had quite a few). Again, there seems to be quite a big confusion when we first raised the issue of "flickering" here at nVnews.

I can't agree with your comments here, and I can bet that what people thought was a screen flickering was only a refresh rate flickering.

Now that I got everyone confused, we should redefine the symptons. It would be much easier for the users and NVIDIA (for the future).
No offense, but just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it's not happening. If you look at some the responses here it seems a lot of people are having the issue. Apparently nVidia believes it's one too if a PR person is asking for help. If it has happened with GeForce 2 like the above person stated. (Yes this same very incident with rolling lines did occur with GeForce 2). Something is wrong with the cards filtering.

Has anyone who "has" the rolling lines issue tried a pure DVI to DVI connection with a LCD monitor? Would be interesting to see the results. Because we all know the "refresh rate problem" doesn't occur on LCD monitors.

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Old 08-08-03, 09:14 PM   #102
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Originally posted by Riptide
Particularly unacceptable with a $500 graphics card. Consider that was years ago as well.
I take it you were a victim as well? Lol, I still have mine (and the box as well with the $499 price tag) my 17-year old daughter uses it on a box I built for her to to check her email
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Old 08-08-03, 09:19 PM   #103
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Originally posted by rmonster
No, Soloman is right. The flickering/rolling lines/etc problem was well documented with the GF2 Ultras. In fact, it was likely a contributing cause for Creative pulling out of the US graphics market, iirc.
I recall numerous people complaining about the rolling lines issue with the GeForce 2. The complaints started dying off with the GeForce 3 and 4 when the topic wasn't really talked about. Now that nVidia has brought up the rolling lines with the FX, I would seriously start questioning the proccess of how they manufacture cards. It doesn't take a genius that most to all vendors aren't changing anything from the reference know a days with the exception of maybe 1 or 3 vendors.

It sounds like a interference issue. For *****s and giggles I would try to remove the install plate (the one you screw to support the card) see if that is causing any interference. Plus someone try the TV-Out port... Since you can basically turn your TV into your monitor. It would be interesting to know if the TV-Out port has this same issue with rolling lines. If we can start eliminating certain situations. I'm sure it'll be easier to determine what's the problem.

I still think nVidia needs to do better Q&A if this has become a regular occurance with their chipsets since the GeForce 2 GPU.

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Old 08-08-03, 09:23 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally posted by Siskods9
My LCD monitor is an IIyama AS4314UT-BK
<20ms Response time
75Hz max refresh rate
1280*1024 max res.
Unfortunately it's analog only, no DVI connection...
Siskods9, you got the rolling lines issue? No DVI and you are using the VGA connector correct?

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Old 08-08-03, 09:57 PM   #105
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Originally posted by Siskods9
That's correct Solomon...
Ouch... So far it seems to target Analog monitors. I haven't read in this thread nor the other thread that this problem occurs with DVI LCD monitors.

Since you are the only one responding so far. . Try this experiment when you have the chance. Run your TV-Out connection to a TV and disconnect the VGA plug (so you are running strictly the TV-Out). It would be very interesting to know if the TV-Out has rolling lines. If it doesn't. Then we can at least point the problem to the A/D converter or the filtering between the connectors to the RAMDAC.

When using the DVI connector on a DVI LCD we know it by passes the necessary filters to convert to a digital signal. But when using the VGA connector we know it converts the signal from analog to digital. Personally I think it's something with the A/D conversion circuitry...

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Old 08-08-03, 09:58 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solomon
I recall numerous people complaining about the rolling lines issue with the GeForce 2. The complaints started dying off with the GeForce 3 and 4 when the topic wasn't really talked about. Now that nVidia has brought up the rolling lines with the FX, I would seriously start questioning the proccess of how they manufacture cards. It doesn't take a genius that most to all vendors aren't changing anything from the reference know a days with the exception of maybe 1 or 3 vendors.

It sounds like a interference issue. For *****s and giggles I would try to remove the install plate (the one you screw to support the card) see if that is causing any interference. Plus someone try the TV-Out port... Since you can basically turn your TV into your monitor. It would be interesting to know if the TV-Out port has this same issue with rolling lines. If we can start eliminating certain situations. I'm sure it'll be easier to determine what's the problem.

I still think nVidia needs to do better Q&A if this has become a regular occurance with their chipsets since the GeForce 2 GPU.

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Well I get rolling lines too on my Radeon 9500 card at lower resolutions on my analog output /shrug Upping to a high resolution fixes the problem tho.

It also happens to Radeon users. As I've heard people complain about it from them too. So you're singling out Nvidia isnt really fair
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Old 08-08-03, 10:00 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisRay
Well I get rolling lines too on my Radeon 9500 card at lower resolutions on my analog output /shrug
Then we can probably say that ATi & nVidia use some bad A/D circuitry or something.

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Old 08-08-03, 10:01 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solomon
Then we can probably say that ATi & nVidia use some bad A/D circuitry or something.

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I guess so. I've heard of the problem with other radeon users. Doesnt occur on my Radeon 8500.

I wasnt sure what caused it. But it doesnt really distract me tho.

640x480 = rolling Lines for me tho


But when playing games like starcraft I can easily ignore it. Doesnt happen on my DVI + Converter to my second monitor
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Old 08-08-03, 10:05 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisRay
It also happens to Radeon users. As I've heard people complain about it from them too. So you're singling out Nvidia isnt really fair
From the last time I looked this discussion wasn't about ATi, but about nVidia and rolling lines. I don't know why I have to bring ATi in this conversation when it's about nVidia hardware in general. If ATi has the same problem on their cards well that's another discussion. This discussion is about nVidia's rolling lines. I don't see how I'm singling out nVidia? If you want to talk about ATi then start up a thread about ATi and their rolling line issues. I'm just keeping it on topic.

This isn't a (Well ATi has it too) type of thread. It's about nVidia's issues with rolling lines.

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Old 08-08-03, 10:17 PM   #110
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All you guys are doing is confusing the subject! Forget old cards, forget ATI, and forget rolling lines! None of these have anything to do with the CURRENT problem of FX cards experiencing significant light/dark rapid flickering even at refresh rates as high as 100Hz in 3D mode only and even when the picture is stationary. THAT is the problem being discussed here. And as I already pointed out, changing to the DVI connector does not resolve the problem one bit. Let's focus on the current problem as I've described it, which for MOST people seems to disappear when they remove the 4-pin power connector from their FX card! Thank you!
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Old 08-08-03, 10:18 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solomon
From the last time I looked this discussion wasn't about ATi, but about nVidia and rolling lines. I don't know why I have to bring ATi in this conversation when it's about nVidia hardware in general. If ATi has the same problem on their cards well that's another discussion. This discussion is about nVidia's rolling lines. I don't see how I'm singling out nVidia? If you want to talk about ATi then start up a thread about ATi and their rolling line issues. I'm just keeping it on topic.

This isn't a (Well ATi has it too) type of thread. It's about nVidia's issues with rolling lines.

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From your posts. Thats what I gathered. /shrug It seems you are incredibly hard on Nvidia. IMO but oh well.
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Old 08-08-03, 10:24 PM   #112
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Well for me, there is no reason to be "easy" on nVidia as of late. This issue is suprising as I thought by now that this problem would have been solved already. There have been 4 introductions of new chipsets since the GeForce 2. You think they would have solved this issue by now. Until nVidia can show me that they have changed for the better, I'll still be hard on them. I'll be hard on anyone with the same background that nVidia has had for the last couple of months.

Maybe nVidia should have stolen more employees from Matrox for their 2D/DVI/Quality, because their employees they "persuaded" to join their side was just for nView... Yippee! Hehe

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Old 08-08-03, 10:28 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solomon
Well for me, there is no reason to be "easy" on nVidia as of late. This issue is suprising as I thought by now that this problem would have been solved already. There have been 4 introductions of new chipsets since the GeForce 2. You think they would have solved this issue by now. Until nVidia can show me that they have changed for the better, I'll still be hard on them. I'll be hard on anyone with the same background that nVidia has had for the last couple of months.

Maybe nVidia should have stolen more employees from Matrox for their 2D/DVI/Quality, because their employees they "persuaded" to join their side was just for nView... Yippee! Hehe

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Well I believe its possible for it to have happened on prior Nvidia cards. Tho I've owned like 4 now. And never saw it.

First time I saw it was on my Radeon. Anywho.

I figure I am in a minority. And up until now. Perhaps it was a small enough minority that Nvidia felt it was an insignificant variable?
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Old 08-08-03, 10:28 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solomon
If it has happened with GeForce 2 like the above person stated. (Yes this same very incident with rolling lines did occur with GeForce 2). Something is wrong with the cards filtering.


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The rolling lines issue with the GF2 Ultra is NOT "this very same incident" as this issue because the "rolling lines" were visible in 2D as well as 3D. This issue is not rolling lines....I would describe it as a pulsating effect that could be descrived as flicker...either way, a $500 graphics card should not have such issues.

I also have to agree with Volt with regard to your statement about nVidia's QA. If this issue was as noticeable or widespread as it appears now that hundreds of users are using them, why didn't veteran hardware reviewers pick up on it? Could it be the issue is not 100% reproducible by EVERY user and is much like a bug in a piece of software that happens to get by QA and beta testers only to be discovered by some users among the masses? If you think nVidia's QA actually saw such a thing and did not report it, then how did the hardware reviewers miss it? Never saw a single mention of it in a review until this week when the issue has been widely discussed.
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Old 08-08-03, 10:43 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigBerthaEA
The rolling lines issue with the GF2 Ultra is NOT "this very same incident" as this issue because the "rolling lines" were visible in 2D as well as 3D. This issue is not rolling lines....I would describe it as a pulsating effect that could be descrived as flicker...either way, a $500 graphics card should not have such issues.

I also have to agree with Volt with regard to your statement about nVidia's QA. If this issue was as noticeable or widespread as it appears now that hundreds of users are using them, why didn't veteran hardware reviewers pick up on it? Could it be the issue is not 100% reproducible by EVERY user and is much like a bug in a piece of software that happens to get by QA and beta testers only to be discovered by some users among the masses? If you think nVidia's QA actually saw such a thing and did not report it, then how did the hardware reviewers miss it? Never saw a single mention of it in a review until this week when the issue has been widely discussed.
Err, yes it was (from the descriptions of the current issue) the same. Flickering in 3d, rolling lines in 2d, got worse with mouse movement, etc. Yes, it was well documented and widespread back then as well, though to date no solution was ever provided.

Creative just closed their doors to the US, claiming that customers were too demanding and returned too many cards on rma status.

As laughable as it might sound to you now, those cards were the flagships back then, and cost the same $500, although allowing for inflation, were probably even more expensive comparatively than the 5900's are now.

I empathize for your situation, having been through it myself, and truly hope a solution is found. Kudos to BB and Nvidia for stepping up to the plate this time and asking for input to get to the bottom of it, which is quite a bit more than was done for me and others like me a while back.

Just my .02
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Old 08-08-03, 11:15 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigBerthaEA
If this issue was as noticeable or widespread as it appears now that hundreds of users are using them, why didn't veteran hardware reviewers pick up on it?
<snip>
If you think nVidia's QA actually saw such a thing and did not report it, then how did the hardware reviewers miss it? Never saw a single mention of it in a review until this week when the issue has been widely discussed.
I read plenty of reviews from reputable sites before I ordered my Asus P4S8X motherboard. They were all pretty much glowing and I bought it in part based on the reviews I read, and there were several. That was an absolute disaster, and I was *far* from the only person who got a junk motherboard.

Never again will I trust in reviews. For me, I check abxzone first and read the threads. Only way to find the truth that I've found so far...
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Old 08-08-03, 11:22 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally posted by rmonster
1. Err, yes it was (from the descriptions of the current issue) the same. Flickering in 3d, rolling lines in 2d, got worse with mouse movement, etc.

2. As laughable as it might sound to you now, those cards were the flagships back then, and cost the same $500, although allowing for inflation, were probably even more expensive comparatively than the 5900's are now.
1. I disagree. I saw two completely different issues since I have had both cards in question.

2. Not once did I mention anything as being "laughable" about this situation.
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Old 08-08-03, 11:24 PM   #118
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If this issue was as noticeable or widespread as it appears now that hundreds of users are using them, why didn't veteran hardware reviewers pick up on it?
Hahaha! Because the veteran hardware reviewers can't be trusted! They would NEVER get a sample or early card from any manufacturer again if they said the cards had issues like flickering and what not, thus causing possibly millions in loses to the card/chip company. And without early cards and free samples, they'd be out of the review business. And magazines, forget it... they'd lose ad revenue.

Also, the cards they DO get are probably engineering samples that probably use top end components, not cheap as dirt components intended for mass production by unknown Taiwanese 3rd party manufacturer working out of a large basement!

So the last guy who posted is right, can't really trust most reviews, you gotta read forums!
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Old 08-09-03, 02:05 AM   #119
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Guys, if you want to debate something please do it in another thread. Thanks.
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Old 08-09-03, 03:02 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by volt
I have also reported "noise" annoyance to Brian. I'm kind of mixed up though. I have a Prolink FX 5900 which is supposed to be custom made PCB. Could be an early NVIDIA revision with yellow paint slapped on
I don't think anyone has posted a solution for this problem (at least not that I noticed), so I'll do it. Turn off the "smooth scrolling" option for your mouse and the noise goes away. It's worked with four 5900 Ultra's that I've dealt with. Hope it works for you all.
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Old 08-09-03, 03:17 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flavius
All you guys are doing is confusing the subject! Forget old cards, forget ATI, and forget rolling lines! None of these have anything to do with the CURRENT problem of FX cards experiencing significant light/dark rapid flickering even at refresh rates as high as 100Hz in 3D mode only and even when the picture is stationary. THAT is the problem being discussed here. And as I already pointed out, changing to the DVI connector does not resolve the problem one bit. Let's focus on the current problem as I've described it, which for MOST people seems to disappear when they remove the 4-pin power connector from their FX card! Thank you!
God, Thank You. Some of you were getting off the subject here I think.
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Old 08-09-03, 04:00 AM   #122
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Default What Games Show Flickering The Most? Need To Test My 256mb 5900 Ultra!

So what game show the flickering the most? I have the following that I could check so please let me know if any of these show the flickering really well and also where in the game?

Vietcong
Battlefield 1942 and add-on
No one Lives Forever 2
Morrowind
Unreal 2
Splinter Cell
Mafia
Medal Of Honor AA
RTCW
Aliens vs Predator 2
GTA 3
Soldier of Fortune 2

I just need to check so that if my card has the flickering I can send it back before my time runs out.

Also this thread will help offers too!
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Old 08-09-03, 04:50 AM   #123
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Merged.

DO NOT create new "flickering threads" please.
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[size=1]The politics are invading the technology. We don't really like to mess with politics because that kind of adversarial relationship has nothing to do with pure technical operations and the technical specifications of what we like to play with, the hardware![/size]
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Old 08-09-03, 04:51 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flavius
Hahaha! Because the veteran hardware reviewers can't be trusted! They would NEVER get a sample or early card from any manufacturer again if they said the cards had issues like flickering and what not, thus causing possibly millions in loses to the card/chip company. And without early cards and free samples, they'd be out of the review business. And magazines, forget it... they'd lose ad revenue.

Also, the cards they DO get are probably engineering samples that probably use top end components, not cheap as dirt components intended for mass production by unknown Taiwanese 3rd party manufacturer working out of a large basement!

So the last guy who posted is right, can't really trust most reviews, you gotta read forums!
The 5900 Ultra card Anand received a problem with "incredibly blurry" video output and they reported it in the review. Do you really think nvidia isn't going to send him NV36/38/40 review samples because of it?

lol
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Old 08-09-03, 05:07 AM   #125
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Default Re: What Games Show Flickering The Most? Need To Test My 256mb 5900 Ultra!

Quote:
Originally posted by seizetheday4eva
So what game show the flickering the most? I have the following that I could check so please let me know if any of these show the flickering really well and also where in the game?

Vietcong
Battlefield 1942 and add-on
No one Lives Forever 2
Morrowind
Unreal 2
Splinter Cell
Mafia
Medal Of Honor AA
RTCW
Aliens vs Predator 2
GTA 3
Soldier of Fortune 2

I just need to check so that if my card has the flickering I can send it back before my time runs out.

Also this thread will help offers too!
UT2003, C&C: Generals, RTCW:ET, Colin McRae 3, Hitman 2, Raven Shield, Battle Field 1942.

Haven't checked with others but I don't think I need to.
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[size=1]The politics are invading the technology. We don't really like to mess with politics because that kind of adversarial relationship has nothing to do with pure technical operations and the technical specifications of what we like to play with, the hardware![/size]
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