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Old 08-10-03, 12:47 PM   #151
macachia
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can i check for flickering using unreal tournament 2003? Is this a missing/flickering texture problem or is the monitor flickering?

thx
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Old 08-10-03, 02:58 PM   #152
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Default DVI/Analog, some facts

I would like to give some facts:
-my little support from Germany

2D-Mode:

Asus A7N8X-Deluxe, ASUS9950 Ultra@Detonator44.71a(ASUS)+AUX-Power connected, analog-output to IIyama Pro 510:

Flicker and strange sound from the FX-card while scrolling in OutlookExpress6 and IE6 with mousewheel or corsorkeys!
(no Flicker and no sound while scrolling with slidebar)



Asus A7N8X-Deluxe, ASUS9950 Ultra@Detonator44.71a(ASUS)+AUX-Power connected, DVI-output to IIyama AS4821 (TFT):

no Flicker but the same strange sound from the FX-card while scrolling in OutlookExpress6 and IE6 with mousewheel or corsorkeys!
(no Flicker and no sound while scrolling with slidebar)


If I disable the hardwareacceleration in Desktop-settings: no flicker ,no strange sound ! (but that's surely not the wanted solution)

PS: I can see this flicker in the "loading-screens" of the 3DMark03-Benchmarks
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Old 08-10-03, 03:18 PM   #153
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hi there, does the flicker happen in the textures or a flicker in the monitor? i'm asking this since i'm not sure if i have this or not

thx

Last edited by macachia; 08-10-03 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 08-10-03, 03:25 PM   #154
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Switching to DVI out didn't help me at all. I had no lines whatsoever, just a pulsing light/dark type flicker on the screen. I wouldn't call it so much a traditional flicker so much as a pulsing light/dark effect that got worse when moved the mouse. You can most easily see the effect on static 3D images. The game I used for testing was Etherlords in the Duel mode on Red Desert level. It's painfully obvious there. Move the mouse around and its like you're looking at a strobe light even though its 100Hz refresh. There is a faint flicker even when the mouse is stationary, but it gets worse when the mouse is moved, which is extremely odd, I know, same effect on PS2 and USB. And I have a top of the line Intel D875PBZ board here with top Enermax PSU, and Audigy2, so you can't blame my hardware. Monitor is a top of the line IBM P97 FD Trinitron .24 tube, and a logitech optical mouse.
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Old 08-10-03, 03:52 PM   #155
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Default flicker FX5900ultra DVI/analog-facts - update and correction -

Asus A7N8X-Deluxe, ASUS9950 Ultra@Detonator44.71a(ASUS)+AUX-Power connected, analog-output to IIyama Pro 510:

Flicker and strange sound from the FX-card while scrolling in OutlookExpress6 and IE6 with mousewheel or cursorkeys!
(barely noticeable flicker and (undertone sound) while scrolling with slidebar)



Asus A7N8X-Deluxe, ASUS9950 Ultra@Detonator44.71a(ASUS)+AUX-Power connected, DVI-output to IIyama AS4821 (TFT):

no flicker but the same strange sound from the FX-card while scrolling in OutlookExpress6 and IE6 with mousewheel or cursorkeys!
(no flicker and (undertone sound) while scrolling with slidebar)


If I disable the hardwareacceleration in Desktop-settings: no flicker ,no strange sound ! (but that's surely not the wanted solution)

PS: I can see this flicker in the "loading-screens" of the 3DMark03-Demo
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Old 08-11-03, 02:12 AM   #156
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I hope my post will be more on the informative side for people who are still trying to verify whether they have a problem on their FX card or not.

I have downloaded flicker.dem as posted on page 4 and tried it out on my MSI FX5900U (nv reference design board) and found the flicker issue.

Here's my hypothesis as an electrical engineer, but I may be wrong:

1. This seems like an analog signal integrity issue. It is unlikely that any driver/BIOS update will fix it, UNLESS Nvidia has some control over the power supply from the software. It seems that the framebuffer contents are indentical, but the RAMDAC is doing something funky.

2. This may be related to "cutting" the FX5900U length from reference design that was about 1" longer. I see that a lot of decaps have been removed from the shipping product. This can compromise the quality of clean power supply to the ASIC.

3. I was not noticing this problem until someone showed me how (using UT2003's flicker demo).

4. To see what this problem looks like when it is happening: try autodetect in 3-D clock settings. The 2-D screen's brightness will have intensity modulation. I have a hypothesis on why this causes the symptom as well: During "autodetect" the ASIC is sinking power like crazy, thus any power supply deficiency will show up.

5. I also have a slight noise during screen scroll in IE. I haven't bothered to check where the noise is coming from, though, but I actually thought it was kinda cool although this looks like another power supply issue.

6. I didn't feel that this symptom annoy me that much. May be I haven't run into the case where it would.

System spec: Power supply is Enermax 450W w/fan speed control, mobo is ABIT IC-7G with 2x512MB Corsair RAM. CPU is 3.0 P4C. Abit's hardware monitor is showing 12V rail at 11.98 and not fluctuating, although I haven't hooked up a scope to some node near the ASIC's power input pins (I have to remove the rear heatsink to do it, and am too lazy to do so).

Finally, I am *surprised* that nvidia is surprised when someone informed them of this issue. They have got all the resources and know the power consumption of their ASIC and their card's power supply capability. May be their 3rd party card's manufacturer cut some corners?
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Old 08-11-03, 05:33 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally posted by nutiu
I hope my post will be more on the informative side for people who are still trying to verify whether they have a problem on their FX card or not.

I have downloaded flicker.dem as posted on page 4 and tried it out on my MSI FX5900U (nv reference design board) and found the flicker issue.

Here's my hypothesis as an electrical engineer, but I may be wrong
I want to add the voltage diff. if the devices are stressed on the MB, between the power regulators on the MB and the GPU PCB wich maybe result in a "ground-loop" as I've posted in an other thread.

PS: Also got substational electrotechnical experience.
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Old 08-11-03, 10:02 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally posted by nutiu
I have downloaded flicker.dem as posted on page 4 and tried it out on my MSI FX5900U (nv reference design board) and found the flicker issue.
Could you please post a link to that file ? I really need it to see if I have flickering issue.
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Old 08-11-03, 10:25 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally posted by nutiu

4. To see what this problem looks like when it is happening: try autodetect in 3-D clock settings. The 2-D screen's brightness will have intensity modulation. I have a hypothesis on why this causes the symptom as well: During "autodetect" the ASIC is sinking power like crazy, thus any power supply deficiency will show up.

5. I also have a slight noise during screen scroll in IE. I haven't bothered to check where the noise is coming from, though, but I actually thought it was kinda cool although this looks like another power supply issue.

#4...this is exactly what I reported privately to nVidia and I think it does have some relation to the problem at hand. Nice pick-up on your part.

#5...I don't see the flicker at all in 2D but I do notice it slightly in 3D when the mouse wheel is engaged (Logitech MX-700).

Excellent analysis...I hope it helps fix the issue!
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Old 08-11-03, 11:30 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigBerthaEA
#4...this is exactly what I reported privately to nVidia and I think it does have some relation to the problem at hand. Nice pick-up on your part.

#5...I don't see the flicker at all in 2D but I do notice it slightly in 3D when the mouse wheel is engaged (Logitech MX-700).

Excellent analysis...I hope it helps fix the issue!
10. To see whether the card flickers in 2D, right click on desktop->properties->settings->advanced->GeForce FX 5900 Tab->Clock Frequencies->Click Auto Detect button. This will detect the appropriate clocks for the card while the screen should flicker, the same way it does in 3D

page 4
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Old 08-11-03, 11:46 AM   #161
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Quote:
Originally posted by volt
10. To see whether the card flickers in 2D, right click on desktop->properties->settings->advanced->GeForce FX 5900 Tab->Clock Frequencies->Click Auto Detect button. This will detect the appropriate clocks for the card while the screen should flicker, the same way it does in 3D

page 4
Did not read page 4 nor did I read the document in question...my bad...
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Old 08-11-03, 01:33 PM   #162
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in 2d mode, the auto detect button is grayed out, is this normal?
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Old 08-11-03, 02:25 PM   #163
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Xavyer,

Thanks for more theory of why flickering is happening. A ground loop is definitely on the list of possible causes.

It seems that if they don't decouple the power supply from the Molex connector and the power supply provided by the AGP slot, a ground loop is inevitable. I doubt nv has decoupled the power supply (separating the ground completely from PC's ground), because the NV35 ASIC consumes so much power that designing the power supply that way would be both inefficient and expensive. It seems like we have to wait for the PCI-X or whatever standard that allows the slot to supply 100+ watts to the peripheral card.

I cannot see any flicker in 2-D mode either, except when I do that autodetect thing. I didn't find out by myself, but I read from this forum that, if you would like to see what the "flickering" problem looks like, you should do autodetect from the clock adjustment menu. In regular 2-D use, my FX5900 ultra is giving out solid 2-D output. But at 1600x1200, with Nokia's monitor testing utility available right here at NVnews, I see some "flicker" that I cannot trace the source. it may be my monitor (Sony G-520, not the best in the world) or the FX.

The autodetect button will be grayed out in 2-D clock adjustment mode, at least on detonator 45.20 that I am using.

A little story of nvidia and ATI that you may find interesting (or perhaps you already know it ):

This ATI team that is responsible for R9700 onward is not the old ATI that has been around for some time.

I almost joined SGI's AGD (Advanced Graphics Division) in late '97 after I finished school. At that time they were doing "Bali," the follow-up to the famous Infinite Reality series of graphics supercomputer. One of the strengths of Bali would be floating point color representation, just like what we have on the FX and ATI's 9x series today.

SGI had been in trouble for quite some time in late '97, so I decided to turn their job offer down, but I managed to get to know some SGI ASIC designers. SGI AGD staff was mostly laid off in mid-99, so these engineers with super-duper graphics experience went 3 routes, one went to nvidia, another went to found ArtX (responsible for graphics ASIC in Nintendo's gamecube), and some jumped out of the graphics industry completely and went to work for telecom/networking industry (wise choise back in 99).

ArtX was in Silicon Valley when it was acquired by ATI. So, when the 9700 was announced, I was not surprised that it was so good. After all, it was designed by top-notch ex-SGI engineers at ArtX. The only missing "feature" was robust windows platform driver, and it took their team some time to get to have the driver maturity to be comparable with nvidia, who has been doing a PC-based product for much longer than they have.

I believe it would be interesting to see what would come out from nvidia vs. ATI battle. Each has its weaknesses and strengths. It's possible that the "winner" didn't win on technical merits alone. Good marketing and cash management can get a company very far in this economic downturn.
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Old 08-11-03, 04:00 PM   #164
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Well I just got a nice big FU from eVGA on the issue... They said nvidia knows about the problem and they wont give a refund for the card/ The only thing they will do for me is replace the noisy fan and thast about it. Definetly will be my last nvidia card
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Old 08-11-03, 04:15 PM   #165
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Quote:
The only thing they will do for me is replace the noisy fan and thast about it. Definetly will be my last nvidia card
You'll be back when ATI drivers lock your system hard! LOL!
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Old 08-11-03, 04:23 PM   #166
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Quote:
It seems like we have to wait for the PCI-X or whatever standard that allows the slot to supply 100+ watts to the peripheral card.
BALONEY! The ATI 9800 Pro card consumes a lot of power too and uses the same molex connector and it does NOT have this problem. We shouldn't let Nvidia make us wait for PCI-Express. (NOT PCI-X, thats something else.) I just bought a new 800MhHz FSB motherboard and I'm not going to throw it out now just because Nvidia can't engineer their cards properly. They'd better get out a new batch of AGP cards with this problem fixed, or they're in deep deep trouble. It will be years before all video cards are PCI-Express. What, you think everyone will go out and buy a new computer overnight?

Quote:
The only missing "feature" was robust windows platform driver, and it took their team some time to get to have the driver maturity to be comparable with nvidia.
A driver maturity that they have yet to obtain! ATI Cat 3.6 drivers can lock XP hard in some games. I don't see Nvidia drivers doing that!
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Old 08-11-03, 05:04 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flavius
You'll be back when ATI drivers lock your system hard! LOL!
I've recently tried the 9700 Pro and 9800 card's simply because I wanted to see what all the cheers were about. While it was damn fast the only problem I had was having to switch between 2 drivers to play different games. But I have to ask myself... whats wose... 2 drivers or a strobe light in my face

Believe me I don't want to switch but what choice am I left with when I spend $500 and I'm being told that all I can do is dance disco to the card...
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Old 08-11-03, 05:18 PM   #168
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Sell it on e-bay. I lost less money that I would have returning mine because of the restocking fee.
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Old 08-11-03, 05:22 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flavius
Sell it on e-bay. I lost less money that I would have returning mine because of the restocking fee.
I don't think I could do that to someone... what if they end up with the same problem
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Old 08-11-03, 05:30 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally posted by volt
10. To see whether the card flickers in 2D, right click on desktop->properties->settings->advanced->GeForce FX 5900 Tab->Clock Frequencies->Click Auto Detect button. This will detect the appropriate clocks for the card while the screen should flicker, the same way it does in 3D
My 5900 did flicker when it was detecting clock speeds. It was weird, but I thought it was normal because in games and 2D the card did not exhibit this behavior.
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Old 08-11-03, 07:57 PM   #171
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My new 5900R (Gainward) has the flickering, but I hardly notice it while I'm playing the game. Only when I die, or am staring at the screen for some other reason (menus).

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Old 08-11-03, 09:00 PM   #172
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this really makes me want to buy an nvidia card. NOT! I don't want any flickering.
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Old 08-12-03, 06:27 AM   #173
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Quote:
Originally posted by nutiu
Xavyer,

Thanks for more theory of why flickering is happening. A ground loop is definitely on the list of possible causes.

It seems that if they don't decouple the power supply from the Molex connector and the power supply provided by the AGP slot, a ground loop is inevitable. I doubt nv has decoupled the power supply (separating the ground completely from PC's ground), because the NV35 ASIC consumes so much power that designing the power supply that way would be both inefficient and expensive. It seems like we have to wait for the PCI-X or whatever standard that allows the slot to supply 100+ watts to the peripheral card.
I don't think it'll be that expensive, a few posabilety's to salve a possible ground loop in non particular order

1#decouple the MB power path and only used it to provide the power regulator on the pcb of the gpu with an refference voltage (so that u r stil able to alter the AGP voltage)

2#electronicly short cirquit the both power cirquits with in mind that it's NOT the idea that the GPU powers the MB via the AGP conector

3# connect the both power regulators on the MB and AGP so that the same voltage is maintained in the whole cirquit

4#salve posible ground resistance so that an exact ground in the whole cirquit is used

I think that its possible to stay under the 15 dollar solution privately bought, if this would come out as the solution and if the manufactorer of the GPU's will gross order I think itl be one quater of that.

Last edited by Xavyer; 08-12-03 at 06:32 AM.
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Old 08-12-03, 06:57 AM   #174
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i checked the flickering.dem someone posted on page4, i notice no flickering in ut2003's sky (thanks god), but i sill get the wierd noise while scrolling etc.

maybe i'm just not noticing the flickering
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Old 08-12-03, 11:26 PM   #175
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Ok, since no one seemed to notice my post where I gave the fix to the scrolling noise, I'll give it again... for the third time... UNCHECK THE "USE SMOOTH SCROLLING" OPTION IN THE ADVANCED INTERNET OPTIONS. It works like magic. Hope someone sees this post this time.
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