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Old 06-25-11, 10:03 AM   #25
Gusar
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Default Re: 96.43.19 and XOrg 1.10.1

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Originally Posted by Huogo View Post
and how stupid are everyone here asking for basic support
Err, what?? Dude...

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Originally Posted by Huogo View Post
maybe for Christmas I'll be able to use Ubuntu 11.04.
Ok, so first you attack me for repeating myself, and then you go and ignore what is it actually that I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by Huogo View Post
But how do you explain that Nvidia users are the only ones affected ? Ati and Intel drivers aren't working just by chance with Xserver 1.10 !
Oh, they are very much affected. AMD doesn't provide a closed driver for legacy hardware at all. As for Intel, I could repeat what I already said, but that would just be more "congratulating myself".

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Originally Posted by Huogo View Post
And if Nvidia is not able to update the legacy driver, why don't they just opensourced it ?
One big reason would be the tons of third party code in there. Another would be the extensive review and clean-up of the code that would be necessary even if all the code was theirs. That'd be way too expensive, considering we're talking here about such old hardware.

Releasing documentation would likewise be a big undertaking, assembling the required docs in the first place, if it's even possible to get all of them. Then reviewing everything and clearing it for release. Not worth it for just the old hardware, it would only make sense if they had the plan to follow up and eventually catch up to the latest hardware, like AMD has done.

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Originally Posted by Huogo View Post
What is sure is that I won't buy again any Nvidia product.
If you have such an old card that requires the legacy 96xx driver, you haven't bought anything from them in a long time, so you weren't of much, if any, value to them anyway. Harsh and cold, but nevertheless correct.
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Old 07-14-11, 08:00 AM   #26
fiftywan
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Default Re: 96.43.19 and XOrg 1.10.1

First of all, thanks AaronP for working on this. I have several computers, and on my desktop (Geforce 4 Ti 4200 AGP 8X) due to a recent upgrade of the OS that bundled XOrg 1.10, I'm now unable to use the 96xx drivers anymore.

To the ones trying to put the blame on either Nvidia for not updating, or the distro for not bringing a means of downgrading the XOrg version, I'd rather say that it's XOrg's fault for breaking backwards compatibility in the first place, no? I mean, 1.10 is a minor version upgrade from 1.9. Backwards compatibility between minor versions of a same product is *very* important, all the more so than it is an open source project which is widely used and as such, interface changes can be very impacting. Regardless, all that matters is that now, the nvidia driver can't be used anymore for the 96xx series with XOrg1.10, and it's sad/bad/frustrating.

To the ones threatening not to buy Nvidia anymore: threats won't lead you anywhere. When the resources are limited, the product range ginormous (if you take all NVIDIA drivers and OSes, do you realize how many chips/OS combinations that makes?). Now, I don't know how many devs and maintainers are working at NVIDIA, but on the list of priorities, "legacy" products support will always be of a lesser priority than support of the most recent and most popular products. If you want to change that fact, apply for a job as a Linux Nvidia driver developer, I think there are job openings

To the ones saying that the threat not to buy is an empty threat if you still own/use such an old card: Just because you still own/use old hardware doesn't mean it's the only hardware of the same brand that you own. I mean, maybe you also have a laptop that you need to replace, or a netbook, or a phone. The nvidia GPU was an important criterion in the choice of my laptop, for example.

In the end, I think we should still put the blame on Nvidia. After more than 8 years of continuous use, my NVIDIA card is still not broken, and I still haven't been forced to change both my MoBo (AGP, remember?), CPU and RAM because of it
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Old 07-14-11, 11:12 AM   #27
Gusar
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Default Re: 96.43.19 and XOrg 1.10.1

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Originally Posted by fiftywan View Post
I'm now unable to use the 96xx drivers anymore.
But you *are*! That's what I'm trying to say the whole time! Why isn't there a PPA with xorg-1.9 available yet? Or something similar to PPAs, if you're not using Ubuntu?
This is open source, you're not forced to use what the vendor serves you. You have an entire open system at your disposal, but you're getting hung up on the one closed part you wish to use.

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Originally Posted by fiftywan View Post
I mean, 1.10 is a minor version upgrade from 1.9
No it's not. A minor upgrade would be 1.9.1. 1.10 is a full new version and those have broken ABI a few times in the past, it's nothing new.
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Old 07-14-11, 02:41 PM   #28
fiftywan
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Default Re: 96.43.19 and XOrg 1.10.1

@Gusar: No, not really. The distro is mageia, and RPM downgrading to xorg-1.9 would be very complicated to the very least (since Mageia 1 *shipped* with xorg 1.10 only). Formatting the box to use another distro which still makes 1.9 available is also not an option, because I don't have the time to do a long backup + format + restore of all the services I use and deploy on that desktop for my home network. Sure, this is open source. Heck, I could probably recompile Xorg myself, couldn't I? It's open source after all. But then, most of the other packages that rely on X, from that distro, are likely to be "forced removed" because the dependency to xorg v1.10 is not satisfied anymore. So I'll have to compile them all again as well. I don't have enough spare time to do this.
So for now, the only possible option for me is to fallback to the nv or nouveau driver, and wait.

PS: for the "1.10 is actually a major version", my bad. I'm used to the "part before the dot" being the major version number, and whatever comes after the dot, the minor version. (examples with Oracle, Weblogic, and others go this route) All things considered, not everybody applies the same pattern, you're right (examples with Xorg, obviously, or java (though this is debatable))
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Old 07-14-11, 04:46 PM   #29
Gusar
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Default Re: 96.43.19 and XOrg 1.10.1

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Originally Posted by fiftywan View Post
@Gusar: No, not really. The distro is mageia, and RPM downgrading to xorg-1.9 would be very complicated to the very least
I'm sure it's possible. There can't be many packages that depend explicitly on 1.10, pretty much only input drivers (and video drivers, but we're not interested in them, we only want the nvidia blob). So you'd only need to recompile/downgrade those. If other packages have an explicit dependency on 1.10 and not simply on xorg, then the distro or the package manager are broken. But I don't believe that's the case. Apps shouldn't have a dependency on the server anyway, only on the client libs.

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Originally Posted by fiftywan View Post
So for now, the only possible option for me is to fallback to the nv or nouveau driver, and wait.
Or create your own xorg-1.9 packages for the server and input drivers (and them share them with the Mageia community). I'll give you one thing though, RPM spec files are uuuugly (I recently had a look at one... ugh!), so I'd understand if you don't want to mess with them. I'll take the simplicity of Arch PKGBUILDs any day.
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Old 07-23-11, 08:01 PM   #30
mrplowdan
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Default Re: 96.43.19 and XOrg 1.10.1

ftp://download.nvidia.com/XFree86/Li...ppendix-b.html
quick someone make an ubuntu ppa
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Old 07-25-11, 02:16 PM   #31
RAMChYLD
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Default Re: 96.43.19 and XOrg 1.10.1

Well, it's nice to see that support for the card has finally caught up with XOrg. I would think of building a new box using the parts and putting back to work, but unfortunately the board has developed bloated caps - noticed it while examining the mobo after the swap. So I guess it's a blessing in disguise that things turned out the way it did.

I've also successfully obtained the M4N78 Pro (had to import it from Taiwan) and GeForce GT520 needed for my MCPC upgrade. All in all, the story had a happy ending I guess.
__________________
Rigs:
  • "Edison" - Phenom II X4 925 AM3 (Deneb), M4N98TD-EVO (nForce980a SLI), ENGTS450 DirectCU 1GB (GeForce GTS450) x2 (SLI), integrated GeForce8200, SoundBlaster X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro, 8GB DDR3-1600
  • "Sally" - Athlon64 x2 5000+ AM2 (Brisbane), M4N72-E (nForce750a SLI), ENGTS250 Dark Knight 1GB (GeForce GTS250) x2 (SLI), integrated GeForce8200, SoundBlaster X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro, 4GB DDR2-1066
  • "Dongwa" - Phenom II X4 945 AM3 (Deneb), M4N75TD (nForce750a SLI), ENGTX260-216SP 896MB (GeForce GTX260 216SP) x2 (SLI), integrated GeForce8200, SoundBlaster X-Fi Fatal1ty Champion, 8GB DDR3-1600
  • "Helen" - Athlon64 x2 6400+ AM2 (Windsor), M4N78 Pro (GeForce8300), ENGT520 1GB (GeForce GT520), integrated GeForce8300, AuzenTech Prelude X-Fi, 4GB DDR2-1066.
  • "Clementine" - Athlon64 x2 3800+ AM2 (Windsor), TF560A2+ (nForce560), V8402GL26 (GeForce 8400GS), SoundBlaster Live! 5.1, Sonnet Allegro FW400 PCIe, 2GB DDR2-800
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Old 08-17-11, 10:49 AM   #32
fiftywan
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Default Re: 96.43.19 and XOrg 1.10.1

Thanks very much to the NVIDIA Team for the updated drivers! I just tried them and started X with the NVIDIA drivers.
Card: Geforce 4 Ti 4200 AGP 8X
OS: Mageia 1 - x86
Driver version: 96.43.20, manual install (RPMs for the distro are not up to date).
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