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Old 09-20-02, 11:17 PM   #25
Feanor
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And if anyone remembers the critisism of the Processor Serial Number, depending on how it is turned off, it might be possible to switch it back on again without the user's knowledge. No, I will not even allow it to be in my machine. As I remember, it was possible to switch the PSN back on through a procedure which included sending the comp into hibernate mode, making the change, then bringing it out again. Following certain discoveries of how this could be turned back on without the user's intervention, the government of China also considered it a security risk and their security ministry advised that no computer with a PSN (whether the person turned it on or off) be allowed on the Internet which well...

No Palladium for me. If it has it, I do not want the product... When Intel announced the PSN, I refused to buy a Pentium III which included it also... My stance on CPRM on the hard drive was the same. They include it in the hardware, I'll boy cott the God d*mned product. My mind is made up on TCPA hardware, and beyond the possibility of PR reps from these companies or Senator Hollings changing... Even if I have to resort to buying over seas or what not, I will chose that over, well... Senator Hollings and the RIAA can go shove it with their TCPA, bills such as as the SSSCA, and everything related, for all I care. I oppose what is being pushed, and more importantly much of the thinking behind the intended implementation of TCPA hardware. I also adamantly disagree with some of the implied definition of what security is, though some definitions might be applicable in a military/national security application, would argue they are totally mis-guided in a resedential application where the user is also the owner of the machine. I also disagree with some of the thinking about what does or does not need to be secured and from whom and for whom, which seems to under-lie things such as TCPA and the argument for a system which is "trusted"...

My opposition would be meaningless if I wasn't willing to put my money where my mouth is however. So I will vote with my money, rather then just buy and then complain after I already bought into it...

Last edited by Feanor; 09-20-02 at 11:51 PM.
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Old 09-22-02, 12:43 AM   #26
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Heres the AMD/Microsoft link...

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...608343597.html
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Old 09-22-02, 12:50 AM   #27
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As you can see in my thread in the rumor mill, Opteron won't be supporting Palladium.

I could probably find a link telling you I had green eyes, if I tried hard enough.

They're hazel. Deal. <g>
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Old 09-22-02, 01:32 AM   #28
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Perhaps with the Opteron, but how about the upcomming Athlon based on the Hammer core. Might seem like a moot point, however perhaps not. Especially if this TCPA is being targeted more towards home users, and it's figured that the upper end Opteron will be sold more to corporate markets (aka where the Athlom MP is sold instead of the Athlon XP).

Remember also, things such as WPA are put in the versions of Windows XP consumers would buy, however it is not in corporate version... This distintion might be worth looking into (if it is there). If it is (being targeted at home users but not the more business oriented and server market space) AMD could say we aren't putting it in (the higher end MP version) while saying nothing about the lower end desktop version of Hammer. People assume, but there wouldn't be a direct lie, the desktop version of Hammer isn't going to be called Opteron, but rather Athlon after all. In many cases, anti-piracy routines have been more targeted at home users, and at least in software to versions targeted at that market (such as WPA).

Perhaps I should see who's saying this. Is it PR? If so, I would give it to PR people to massage the English language, or apply a certain degree of word smithing in this manner, so would want explicit clarification rather then assume based on PR taken at face value. With PR, if it isn't explicitly stated...PR depts in general (without mentioning any particular companies) have massaged things in statements along these lines before...

Then again, it's based on the same core, so one might assume...though it again comes down to how similar Clawhammer and Sledgehammer would be. AKA as similar as Athlon XP is to Athlon MP, or will there be more substantial differences (for which, well...) Anyway knowing if the source is more technical or more PR oriented would help figure out how one should read it...
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Old 09-22-02, 05:01 AM   #29
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If I told you that I had a girlfriend would you believe it?
Any proof that Intel will have it turned off FOR GOOD? How about the Pallidium programs that will not run unless you enable Pallidium? You must turn it on through the BIOS and when you do and load into windows then it might send information about the things on your pc to Intel or whoever. Just something to CONSIDER

Quote:
Originally posted by StealthHawk
what's wrong with Palladium, you can turn it off
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Old 09-22-02, 06:16 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by K.I.L.E.R
If I told you that I had a girlfriend would you believe it?
Any proof that Intel will have it turned off FOR GOOD? How about the Pallidium programs that will not run unless you enable Pallidium? You must turn it on through the BIOS and when you do and load into windows then it might send information about the things on your pc to Intel or whoever. Just something to CONSIDER

yes, i would believe it because unless i have a reason to distrust you, i will give you the benefit of the doubt since you used that rolling eyes emoticon, now i would not believe you

i believe the point is that if i "disable" Palladium but it is still working, and some nice rep from the entertainment industry knocks on my door(if it even gets used for that ), then Microsoft has a serious problem since they PROMISED that Palladium was opt in. obviously i will know that the only way something like that could happen was if Palladium was really on without my knowledge. and if that doesn't constitute some kind of breach of privacy and personal rights, then this country has fallen apart. my guess is, is that if you have Palladium disabled, whether or not MS snoops on your computer, they wouldn't be able to do a damn thing about anything they find, similar to the real world with cops searching and finding things not in plain sight without a warrant expressly made for those said unrelated items.
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Old 09-22-02, 08:04 AM   #31
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SH what Pallidum is, is a step towards breaching your privacy. I am looking at it from a different perspective as you are. Just anothre step. What the final outcome will be known in due time. Shall home pc's be searched with the use of this chip?

Some might even bring in the idea that "terrorism" will be caught before it occurs. Views like that are dangerous to pc users and must be oppressed Imagine your pc being stalked all day?
Dude, eventually this matter will upgrade into another and then into another.
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Old 09-22-02, 08:21 AM   #32
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i appreciate what you guys are trying to say, your point is not lost on me. however, i highly doubt that MS would try to curb movie and music sharing, it would be like shooting themselves in the foot.

maybe the corporate execs are just dumber than i give them credit for, but by and large, most people just don't buy/build/use/need powerful gaming systems. the average Joe isn't going to upgrade very often, as there quite simply is no reason to. and i believe i am correct in saying that many people don't use their computers for much else than movie watching, music playing, typing, correspondence, and web surfing.

basically, the less time people spend on their computers, the less they will notice how "slow" they are and want to upgrade.

maybe Palladium is just a tool in disguise of something benign as a way to control how we use out computers. but did you ever think for a second that it isn't?

assuming that Intel and AMD both include such "features" in future hardware, the computer enthusiast doesn't have much of a choice either way it would seem. but we shall see when the time comes.
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Old 09-22-02, 02:42 PM   #33
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Quote:
i believe the point is that if i "disable" Palladium but it is still working, and some nice rep from the entertainment industry knocks on my door(if it even gets used for that ), then Microsoft has a serious problem since they PROMISED that Palladium was opt in. obviously i will know that the only way something like that could happen was if Palladium was really on without my knowledge.
Like M$ hasn't promised anything before, and well. Anyone want to consider the 1994 consent decree? And if some people are right, SP1 for winXP and 3 for win2k might not exactly be in keeping with the agreement they have with the DoJ now...some people are claiming "I told ya so" to the DoJ now...

http://www.procompetition.org/index.html

It isn't like M$'s track record is sparkling for honesty or believability. Whenever questions of anti-trust violations have come up for instance... Security through obscurity, one could raise questions about being "open and honest" there too

Quote:
maybe the corporate execs are just dumber than i give them credit for, but by and large, most people just don't buy/build/use/need powerful gaming systems.
Or perhaps they're more sly in slightly more slimey sort of way. BTW, this would be assuming most people who own computers are high end gamers, or that the people such as one would find on this forum represents the average computer user (rather then a high end niche user) in the minds of M$ execs. Companies market to the main stream, and the average Joe who is going to buy a computer from their local Wal-Mart isn't necessarily looking for the highest spec machine to go fragging people with in Q3A. Companies such as M$ know that the OEM market is much more enticing then the smaller upgrade retail market. And with Windows contracts they have with the OEMs, they're probably not worried as most pre-built systems come with Windows preinstalled.

Besides, if proposals with Universal Plug and Play go ahead, as well as tying the comp into one's house, the game market isn't necessarily the top consideration on their list. As we're gamers in this news group, it can be on ours, but that doesn't mean that M$ perceives us as the majority of computer users, or our considerations as their priorities.

Last edited by Feanor; 09-22-02 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 09-22-02, 03:30 PM   #34
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BTW, in related news, I just noticed this browsing about (not concerning future releases) but software and driver releases already out there today

http://www.theregus.com/content/4/26387.html

MS would plan to do what Windows Media Player 9 is doing already There's also a note concerning newer drivers from Creative that current SB Live and Audigy users might want to take not of.

MS is also said to supply a file which includes players that support their DRM already...but as indicated since the file was dated from last May, the list might have grown since

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/wi...lec/default.asp

Scroll down and there are more then a few M$ lists. Course this so far is just in software, and doesn't have the intigration between TCPA hardware and software. Not that Creative Labs driver updates don't get a step closer (though still not in silicon).
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Old 09-22-02, 10:39 PM   #35
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Feanor,

that's exactly what i said. most people are not high end gamers, they use their computers for simple tasks including playing music
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Old 09-23-02, 12:40 AM   #36
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Umm StealthHawk,

people don't exactly need to "...buy/build/use/need powerful gaming systems" to listen to a CD. There is likely little difference between using an Athlon XP or even a Pentium III and a Hammer or Intel's sucessor to the Pentium 4 when it comes to playing a CD. Checking email isn't that taxing on current CPUs either...

Besides, the average user who isn't computer savy and couldn't necessarily understand how a 1 GHz Pentium III could possibly outperform a 1.5 GHz Pentium 4 using the Willemette core (yes some people were confused why their brand new computer did some things slower as I remember) as well as the user who has trouble understanding that this program called MS DOS prompt isn't broken because it just sits there with a flashy thingy isn't necessarily going to know or understand why they wouldn't want TCPA hardware.

This isn't exactly the sort of thing many sales people would emphasize either, and yes I have seen some computer sales men in places like Office Max (where typical people might go though not necessarily the high end user) think the CPU is the entire computer case and not understand how the CPU could be refered to as being anything but the entire computer system...

Now Intel and AMD include this, and with Microsoft... Lets see, by the time people put 2 and 2 together and realize something is up, what is the average everyday, in many cases technically illiterate user of average financial means going to do? Buy a Sun SPARC instead of x86, or switch to using Linux. I could just see some people going to buy Sun SPARCs on the average families budget. And I could just see someone's 70+ year old grandmother (or grandfather) who has just barely figured out how to use email, trying to install and configure Linux to do everything they want...

Then again, given Senator Holling's proposed SSSCA, the companies could always just say "we're trying to comply with mandates US Congress seems poised to pass. Don't blame us, we're trying to comply with upcomming law"

Oh, and the problem is, even if the Supreme Court were to over-turn the DMCA and much of this, once the technology base is in place and has become mainstream, short of a court order requiring a recall on all the hardware, and a re-design would it really go away then? Even if proposed law such as the SSSCA were to pass and then be deemed unconstitutional by Judicial Review?

Last edited by Feanor; 09-23-02 at 12:43 AM.
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