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Old 09-23-03, 10:51 PM   #169
saulin
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hovz I would do it from my brother's PC but his AMD CPU is crap. It would not stand a chance.

BTW read the ATI vs Nvidia article I just posted from HardOCP.

In Image quality. Well can't tell the difference aside from FSAA.

Is a good review it even has Doom3 benchmarks.

And I still think FX has the lead in DX8.

Last edited by saulin; 09-23-03 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 09-23-03, 10:54 PM   #170
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saturnotaku those are nice results man which proves ATI FSAA performance is good.

Plus the fact you run the settings in performance mode.

Oh yeah here are my scores without FSAA or aniso.

http://members.shaw.ca/navasa/12x10.html
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Old 09-23-03, 10:56 PM   #171
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As the originator of this thread, and former owner and ACTUAL PLAYER of UT2K3 on the same system with both a 9800Pro and a 5900U, let me chime in here and say that performance and FPS were significantly lower ACROSS THE BOARD with the FX5900U. To hell with that damn flybys and fake benchmarks. In the real world game the 9800Pro simply crushed the FX card. The 9800 Pro, if you have read this whole thread, has gotten as much 4 times faster FPS than an FX card on some of the UT2K3 maps like Icetomb and Rustatorium. I cannot possibly recommend an FX card to ANYONE now, and yes, I am a former Nvidiot! The ATI card with 8XAF and 4XAA at 1024x768 is even and often times MUCH faster than the FX5900U while all the while having much better IQ in UT2K3. The difference in the quality of AA alone is mind blowing.
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Old 09-23-03, 11:03 PM   #172
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dude we are talking average fps here... that is what benchmarks do.

there is a low and there is a high.

Is like 3DMark it does whole bunch of tests and then takes the average score.

Yes ATI FSAA performance is nice compared to Nvidia's. As for 6X ATI being sooo much better than Nvidia's well 4XS or 8XS do look pretty sweet. Jaggies difference would probably be only that much noticiable on older games that have terrible graphics.
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Old 09-23-03, 11:26 PM   #173
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I see that there is a big debate going on here about IQ comparisons. Thats nice but I am reminded of a recent accusation that a pretty big cheese in the gaming industry just made a couple weeks ago.


Something like: "NVIDIA Det 50's use screenshot detection to produce captures at higher quality than those rendered during actual gameplay."

I am not sure if anyone here can really verify this "optimization" but it should be addressed in this thread as a possible cause for the much improved framerate with little IQ difference in many of these screenshots.
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Old 09-24-03, 12:14 AM   #174
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Spotch if that was true I guess Nvidia would be in big trouble then...

That would be some major cheat. Plus the person playing the game would notice that right away and bitch to Nvidia. I don't think they want to do that really.

Anyways just like Behemoth I'm taking a break from this discussion. It keeps repeating and repeating and well for ATI users Nvidia sux no matter what and Nvidia IQ simply does not meet their standards hahaha.

People that switched to ATI may think they did the best thing but I think in a way it was foolish, switching from a FX 5900U to a Radeon 9800 pro since either they had to spend a few more hundreds and got an extra video card now or they had to sell their FX for cheap and still spend a few hundreds. Plus I don't really see a clear future on DX9 for either card.

Well unless you do what someone said to start playing with lower settings untill the speed is fine. But then again there is no point going for that if you are with ATI and since IQ is all that it is about lol.

If I switch it won't be to a 9800 pro for sure I rather wait and see what the future holds for both ATI and Nvidia and any new company that steps into the ring.

See ya!
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Old 09-24-03, 02:03 AM   #175
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Quote:
Plus the fact you run the settings in performance mode.
He ran the tests in HQ mode. It says Right on it.

Secondly the 500mhz e-Vga card never worked right from day one. They released a bios for it to lower clock speeds and its not been heard from since.

Its late and I have to crash but Here is some stuff to chew on.

http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardwa...ew/default.asp

Also note that I am Quite sure than Nvidia is Cheating in Splinter Cell by App detecting this specific level (always used for benchmarking). B3D and other places have Nvidia getting pummeled in Splinter cell. I also Question their Nascar 2004 (EA fix is in). I have a my doubts about IL2 as well.. But...

Those results from [H] are known to be marred by the AF filtering issue for the UT results.

Look at these....

http://www.viperlair.com/reviews/vid...00pro/p2.shtml

http://www.************/_preview.php?articleID=335
Quote:
Ignoring the 256MB vs 128MB discussion, the performance of this card is absolutely stunning! The card beat the competition in almost every benchmark, and I could feel the difference in speed in several games when switching over. The image quality as expected was excellent.
Look at the numbers for yourself. They show a bunch of actual "games" tested with Fraps. The 9800 smokes the 5900U.

Wile your at it you may want to take a gander at these numbers...

http://www.ukgamer.com/article.php4?id=98&page=1

Here's some interesting numbers...

http://www.digital-daily.com/video/f...ro/index04.htm

Look here is another sound thrashing...

http://www.hothardware.com/hh_files/...00pro(4).shtml

Oh and you For Sure want to read this one. Where they show a multitude of Dx8 games.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...cle.php?id=237

Guess who gets an ass whipping in most of those. Like War Craft 3. Big time Dx8 game.

See the pattern? Every single site that does not push standard well known Benchmark levels shows the 9800pro winning the majority of tests. There are some other examples i did not post.

It was also shown by the Guy who makes Nvtweak that by forcing APP detection off the Nvidia scores go into the tank. Ati Scores stay pretty much the same. Meaning game Performance is likely to suffer until nvidia gets the "Fix" into their next driver.

Exceptions are some EA games which have been shown to have a propensity for unfair coding practices. Like Device ID detection to change rendering paths which have a negative affect on the output. IL2 is puzzling but it may actually be just faster on the 5900U. I have posed the Question To Terry & the gang about whatís up with that. Iím sure ill get some kind of answer.

The Same patterns seen in some of these non standard test results can be seen in this Very Thread and a couple others here. Where The ATi card just Creams, i mean Creams the FX in some level where they have not had any opportunity to put an app detect in.

Quite often.. Nvidia is winning some of these tests because Fog is removed. This goes all the way back to the Nv30 at UT2003. It continues today. Especially the 50 series drivers which completely remove Fog for speed.
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Old 09-24-03, 02:12 AM   #176
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Actually I messed up on the hothardware one. That only shows a 5900 not a 5900U. (Wich happen to be priced similarly)

Here is the correct one..

http://www.hothardware.com/hh_files/...5900u(4).shtml

(Yes i skipped the Gunmetal results in both cases... becuase dammit its a freaking Biased out the a$$ Benchmark period. If you have to ask why ill explain later. The results are pretty close but it pisses me off)
Quote:
For those of you keeping count, we ran 34 different tests with these card. In 19 of the tests, the GeForce FX 5900 Ultra based V9950 Ultra outperformed the competition. In 15 of the tests, the Radeon 9800 Pro was the victor. Winning in 56% of the tests doesn't seem so bad, until you realize the 9800 Pro we tested with, is available for about $200 less than the V9950. Ouch...
Uh huh... Of course I threw out the cheesey Gunmetal benchmark resulsts. Still Ati lead most of the D3D based tests they showed.

OpenGL.. Serious Sam "Little Troubble" demo is so freaking "App Detected" by Nvidia its not even funny. It has been for a long long time. Lets see some actual game play with Fraps results. I can Gurantee you who will come out on top.
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Old 09-24-03, 03:56 AM   #177
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
He ran the tests in HQ mode. It says Right on it.

Secondly the 500mhz e-Vga card never worked right from day one. They released a bios for it to lower clock speeds and its not been heard from since.
I thought that eVGA released a new BIOS and cards worked properly at 500MHz? That is what I remember reading here a few months back.

Quote:
Also note that I am Quite sure than Nvidia is Cheating in Splinter Cell by App detecting this specific level (always used for benchmarking). B3D and other places have Nvidia getting pummeled in Splinter cell. I also Question their Nascar 2004 (EA fix is in). I have a my doubts about IL2 as well.. But...
B3D actually ran Splinter Cell with anti-detect and scores were the same. So it appears that NVIDIA actually wasn't cheating in Splinter Cell(in the past at least). I'm surprised too, but it's actually one instance where NVIDIA is clean. Amazing, but true.


P.S. For those of you who don't quite get it, many of us are claiming that the flyby benchmarks in UT2003 may very well be rigged by NVIDIA. It seems odd that NVIDIA cards perform so well in comparison to ATI cards in the most publically benchmarked flyby modes but are basically on equal footing in the aft looked at flybys. Is something fishy going on? Looking at the dramatic increases* from new drivers it's very likely.

*Look at reviews with early drivers then watch scores shoot up with newer drivers. For example, look at old [H] reviews.
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Old 09-24-03, 01:43 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally posted by Behemoth
yes this is sucky IQ, in my defination:

Strange how you showed the one shot with the fog missing. BTW, I think it actually looks better without fog. But not show the other shots I did with no gaping difference at all.

Yes, I do think that Nvidia shouldn't disable Trilinear filtering completely and let the user's choose it. But honestly, from a quality standpoint, trilinear and non trilinear IQ aren't that different save the floor textures. But that's just my opinion. In the end, if we can play our games the way we want, then that's really all that matters. For some ATi is how they like it, for other(a few others ) Nvidia is fine for them.

And let me re itterate what was acknowledged by my 51.75's/45.23's dets comparison shots of UT2k3 DM-ICetomb/DM-rustatorium shots. Very little IQ loss if any, 2x-3x performance gain. I also posted the shots in other message boards and the consensus was the same.

It's gonna be a while before I can do my experiment. Family problems and all.
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Old 09-24-03, 03:42 PM   #179
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Screen Capture Detection! Screen Cqapture Detection! These screenshots are useless! This was alleged as being in the Det 50 drivers by the evil Gabe. Somebody please prove or disprove it so we can stop wasting time on the IQ question.

Somebody take a picture of the screen and post it for IQ comparisons!
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Old 09-24-03, 03:44 PM   #180
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Quote:
BTW, I think it actually looks better without fog
So? The point here is that the fog is SUPPOSED to be THERE coming out of that ceiling light, as a level design decision by the map maker! So any card that doesn't show the level exactly as it was meant to be played has bad IQ! Missing details = bad IQ! It's not just based on what you CAN see!

And yes, I think Nvidia is detecting UT2K3 Flybys and optimizing for them. My ATI flybys were WAY closer to real world performance in the game than my FX flybys were. Nvidia beats ATI in the flybys, but ATI beats Nvidia in game? Something real fishy there!
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