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Old 09-16-03, 03:37 PM   #217
digitalwanderer
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by maxpower
Nah, we're not slow...just q u i e t sometimes.
Yeah, that's a good way to describe me; quiet.
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[SIZE=1][I]"It was very important to us that NVIDIA did not know exactly where to aim. As a result they seem to have over-engineered in some aspects creating a power-hungry monster which is going to be very expensive for them to manufacture. We have a beautifully balanced piece of hardware that beats them on pure performance, cost, scalability, future mobile relevance, etc. That's all because they didn't know what to aim at."
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Old 09-16-03, 03:40 PM   #218
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I'm impressed at how you juggle things around. You know what would make your life easier? -if you had the forums hardwared to your brain somehow and subscribe to those wireless services like those blackberries. Then you'd really be a force to be recken's with

Anyway, enough or they'll move this thing to open. I feel bad whenever that happens.
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Old 09-16-03, 03:42 PM   #219
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Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Yeah, that's a good way to describe me; quiet.
I think max was trying to say that skuzzy had a big mouth

hey, skuzzy... I just said it out loud in my head. That's kinda funny. You realize I almost never try to pronounce any of your nicks -I somehow just recognize the pattern without ever seeing how it sounds.
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Old 09-16-03, 03:47 PM   #220
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Originally posted by eesa
I think max was trying to say that skuzzy had a big mouth

hey, skuzzy... I just said it out loud in my head. That's kinda funny. You realize I almost never try to pronounce any of your nicks -I somehow just recognize the pattern without ever seeing how it sounds.
He worked at Adaptec for a while... I believe he was either the head of the **40 development or worked on **40 development.

(and Jesus, I'm supposed to be somewhere in two minutes and I'm posting on the forums? I am insane.)
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Old 09-16-03, 03:59 PM   #221
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Originally posted by eesa
I think max was trying to say that skuzzy had a big mouth
Hey now, yank those words back outta my mouth. No, I was just saying that some of us staff members here know a few things that we don't always come out and say publicly all the time. 'Course, knowing how to lookup IP information is about as big a deal flipping on a lightswitch.
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Old 09-16-03, 04:12 PM   #222
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Originally posted by The Baron
He worked at Adaptec for a while... I believe he was either the head of the **40 development or worked on **40 development.

(and Jesus, I'm supposed to be somewhere in two minutes and I'm posting on the forums? I am insane.)
Happens to me all the time too.

Has anyone heard anything new from nVidia since the last "Use them for benchmarks and talk about performance but not about image quality" rap? (And I'm not talking about the PCI announcement, I meant something meaty. )
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[SIZE=1][I]"It was very important to us that NVIDIA did not know exactly where to aim. As a result they seem to have over-engineered in some aspects creating a power-hungry monster which is going to be very expensive for them to manufacture. We have a beautifully balanced piece of hardware that beats them on pure performance, cost, scalability, future mobile relevance, etc. That's all because they didn't know what to aim at."
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Old 09-16-03, 04:13 PM   #223
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Originally posted by maxpower
'Course, knowing how to lookup IP information is about as big a deal flipping on a lightswitch.
wow I feel violated Okay, that's it. I'm officially done spamming this thread.

I think I'm going over to that other nvidia/OGL thread to tell the guy how lame I think his example was.
actually no, I think I'll get back to work now. It's after 4pm already!
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Old 09-16-03, 04:39 PM   #224
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At Adaptec for 6 or 7 years. The xx40 series was my creation. I actually did the design and wrote the drivers for the 1540, then they gave me some help and I settled on doing all the UNIX drivers and doling out the design chores for the hardware. Had to do the marketing for that first generation product as well.
It was a lot of fun. I quit the day the President/CEO handed me a plaque and shook my hand thanking me for making him and the board insanely rich. That was the last time I really ever worked for anyone.

My nickname has been hung around my neck since I was in high school. I was a beach bum and looked pretty scuzzy most of the time. Later on, in some Usenet forum, one of the engineers from National Semi coined me as Mr. SCSI. I said, nah,..it's Skuzzy. Been that way since.
Not a beach bum anymore, but still look pretty scuzzy.
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Old 09-16-03, 04:47 PM   #225
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Originally posted by StealthHawk
Well, no. #1 and #4 are not the same. For example, look at ATI's optimization in GT4 of 3dmark03 which supposedly was mathematically and functionally the same as the original code. However, Futuremark at that point still deemed code replacement unacceptable. And in the case of synthetic benchmarks, I agree. And from a poll I conducted earlier, the majority of people agree with me.
If you look at the reason why Futuremark objected, you will find that it had nothing to do with the mathematical correctness of the shader optimization.

The issue is that the optimization actually was in violation of both #2 ( an optimization must accelerate more than just the benchmark ) and #3 ( an optimization must not rely on any precomputed state ).

#2 is easy. The optimization was specific just to GT4. #3 is more subtle: ATI was using shader replacement which relied on doing a match ( likely using a hash of the original shader ) and replace operation on the original shader. This required a prior knowledge of what the shader was.

Any and all non-algorithmic ( aka bulk shader replacement ) would violate #3 but something like the new instruction order optimizers that both ATI and Nvidia are adding to their drivers would not since the optimizers don't rely on any precomputed state. Now there could still be possibilities of the instruction optimizers violating #2.

The reason why Futuremark and Valve are concerned about the bulk shader replacement is that it hides real issues with the drivers/hardware of a video card that can be exposed with shader updates, etc.


As a side comment. If the hardware sites are serious about this, they may want to take a look at some of the specCPU run rules. While the spec rules are far from perfect, they are closer to it than anything out there.

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Old 09-16-03, 04:55 PM   #226
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Originally posted by Evan Lieb
I wonít address the Futuremark comment for now, but this is where disagreement ensues. There are people at NVIDIA and ATI that will actually disagree with developers like Valve on how a scene should be rendered faster or with higher quality. Itís not necessarily because NVIDIA or ATI want to cheat either, a lot of time itís simply because they see a way of optimizing their cards performance.
It is quite simple... Nvidia and ATI are wrong. Simple. If they have to rely on some pre-computed data/state then they are optimising for a single benchmark. Doesn't matter if the benchmark is derived from a game.

I design hardware for a living. The type of hardware where these issues have been long settled. If the hardware is changing the architectual contract with the software... The hardware is broken, bugged, borked, substandard.

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Old 09-16-03, 05:31 PM   #227
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
At Adaptec for 6 or 7 years. The xx40 series was my creation. I actually did the design and wrote the drivers for the 1540, then they gave me some help and I settled on doing all the UNIX drivers and doling out the design chores for the hardware. Had to do the marketing for that first generation product as well.
It was a lot of fun. I quit the day the President/CEO handed me a plaque and shook my hand thanking me for making him and the board insanely rich. That was the last time I really ever worked for anyone.

My nickname has been hung around my neck since I was in high school. I was a beach bum and looked pretty scuzzy most of the time. Later on, in some Usenet forum, one of the engineers from National Semi coined me as Mr. SCSI. I said, nah,..it's Skuzzy. Been that way since.
Not a beach bum anymore, but still look pretty scuzzy.
Hmm... my friend who worked at roxio half a year ago actually was telling me about what you were mentioning. The company was making so much money and the staff that did all the work was and incredibly small group.
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Old 09-16-03, 09:05 PM   #228
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hm. Of all my posts here, Id say about 95+% of them have been nothing but replies to being bashed for being even slightly pro-nvidia. Make sense?
No, because many/most of the "pro-NVIDIA" posts have been laced with FUD or outright lies.

"there is no shader problem on NV3x."
"there is no shader problem in OGL, only in D3D."
"HL2 results are anomalous and nothing supports them."

Or my favorite fanboy diatribe, "yes, there is a problem, but it will be fixed when [insert event]*."

*so far been a driver that was never released, NV35, a driver that was never released, Det50, and now it is some new revision of DX9 or NV38 that will fix the problem according to some.

Don't get me wrong. Some healthy optimism is good. But lying to make NVIDIA look better isn't. Similarly, placing all of your hopes in some phantom event which never seems to arrive doesn't seem too sane either.
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