Go Back   nV News Forums > Hardware Forums > Benchmarking And Overclocking

Newegg Daily Deals

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-13-03, 06:33 PM   #85
ChrisRay
Registered User
 
ChrisRay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 5,101
Default

Well looking at the two screenshots. Comparison of the dets. I dont think they look all that different. With very Very marginal subtle differences. IMO the lighting on the tire area actually looks better with the newer dets.

But both are a fry cry from ATi shot.
__________________
|CPU: Intel I7 Lynnfield @ 3.0 Ghz|Mobo:Asus P7P55 WS Supercomputer |Memory:8 Gigs DDR3 1333|Video:Geforce GTX 295 Quad SLI|Monitor:Samsung Syncmaster 1680x1080 3D Vision\/Olevia 27 Inch Widescreen HDTV 1920x1080

|CPU: AMD Phenom 9600 Black Edition @ 2.5 Ghz|Mobo:Asus M3n HT Deluxe Nforce 780A|Memory: 4 gigs DDR2 800| Video: Geforce GTX 280x2 SLI

Nzone
SLI Forum Administrator

NVIDIA User Group Members receive free software and/or hardware from NVIDIA from time to time to facilitate the evaluation of NVIDIA products. However, the opinions expressed are solely those of the members
ChrisRay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-03, 06:40 PM   #86
sebazve
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Montevideo, Uruguay
Posts: 421
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by vicious2003
more insanity for Nvidia to box through. You can do all the comparing you want. Nvidia is still very strong. I know they make mistakes and can't always be on top, but when you hear things like quality being degraded to make an fps higher people should just be able to turn down the graphics on their settings, not the drivers. I really don't like seeing this kind of thing. I also don't like LEAKED drivers. Its almost like leaking something from Microsoft. You can't trust a incomplete product because hhere are going to be holes. Wait for the real drivers from Nvidia to come out and we will see. I also want to see all this mumbo jumbo go into one lump forum. NVNEWS please put this all into one forum and don't let that .png to be loaded on the forums. only a link.
nvidia is insisting that reviewers use the det 50.
__________________
Signatures are a waste of bandwidth!
thanks rwolf!!!!! :-P
sebazve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-03, 07:37 PM   #87
digitalwanderer
 
digitalwanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Highland, IN USA
Posts: 4,944
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by vicious2003
I also want to see all this mumbo jumbo go into one lump forum. NVNEWS please put this all into one forum and don't let that .png to be loaded on the forums. only a link.
Why don't you want the .png to be loaded on the forums? nVidia and Massive have already used the results to try and imply that their new drivers will give a huge performance boost on DX9 stuff...why not show how they're getting that boost?
__________________
[SIZE=1][I]"It was very important to us that NVIDIA did not know exactly where to aim. As a result they seem to have over-engineered in some aspects creating a power-hungry monster which is going to be very expensive for them to manufacture. We have a beautifully balanced piece of hardware that beats them on pure performance, cost, scalability, future mobile relevance, etc. That's all because they didn't know what to aim at."
-R.Huddy[/I] [/SIZE]
digitalwanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-03, 09:42 PM   #88
StealthHawk
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Bah

Quote:
Originally posted by Moo
That's it. I am dumping my nvda stocks, selling my Ti4200, getting a 9800, as well as buying more atyt shares.
Why would you want to do something as silly as that?

*disclaimer* the following is me being 100% serious
Ok, so you know NVIDIA is cheating. I know NVIDIA is cheating. Probably 80-95% of the people on these forums know in their hearts that NVIDIA is cheating, although not everyone will admit it's wrong. But, so what if NVIDIA is cheating? Those of us who have kept in the loop have known NVIDIA has been cheating for 6 months. Since last year when the r9700 launched I don't think NVIDIA has lost a single percentage point of discrete desktop market share(last quarter they lost some total market share, which is the first drop since r9700 was launched last Fall). They have the largest DX9 market courtesy of the gfFX5200. Major websites like [H], Toms, and Anand have hardly covered NVIDIA's antics(mostly because they refused to look at synthetic "useless" benchamrks). The masses don't know about NVIDIA's cheating. The masses probably don't even care about it. From a company standpoint, NVIDIA is doing very well considering the products they have out and the things they've done. They just keep dishing the PR out and everyone buys it. NVIDIA from a company standpoint has done enviously well. Are they morally bankrupt? Most likely. But they continue to play the game well and succeed. Even today, you can find certain people out there who believe NVIDIA is the second coming(no need to mention names, just read their forum posts) even when faced with all the facts of the past. How do you think the masses will react to NVIDIA when they don't have the facts? Despite all its underhanded dealings and problematic hardware/software, NVIDIA is the darling of the masses and of the press. NV40 will probably fix all these problems and will be out be out in a few months. And everyone will forget the horrible NV3x(except people who own them). From the hardcore enthusiast point of view, it's all doom and gloom. Economically, it's bright!

I am not being sarcastic in the above in any way. I am being dead serious. I would not worry about my investment if I had money in NVDA.

P.S. this is assuming the downward spiral stops and NV40 is clean.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-03, 09:56 PM   #89
ChrisW
"I was wrong", said Chris
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: standing in the corner!
Posts: 620
Default Re: Re: Bah

Quote:
Originally posted by StealthHawk
Why would you want to do something as silly as that?

*disclaimer* the following is me being 100% serious
Ok, so you know NVIDIA is cheating. I know NVIDIA is cheating. Probably 80-95% of the people on these forums know in their hearts that NVIDIA is cheating, although not everyone will admit it's wrong. But, so what if NVIDIA is cheating? Those of us who have kept in the loop have known NVIDIA has been cheating for 6 months. Since last year when the r9700 launched I don't think NVIDIA has lost a single percentage point of discrete desktop market share(last quarter they lost some total market share, which is the first drop since r9700 was launched last Fall). They have the largest DX9 market courtesy of the gfFX5200. Major websites like [H], Toms, and Anand have hardly covered NVIDIA's antics(mostly because they refused to look at synthetic "useless" benchamrks). The masses don't know about NVIDIA's cheating. The masses probably don't even care about it. From a company standpoint, NVIDIA is doing very well considering the products they have out and the things they've done. They just keep dishing the PR out and everyone buys it. NVIDIA from a company standpoint has done enviously well. Are they morally bankrupt? Most likely. But they continue to play the game well and succeed. Even today, you can find certain people out there who believe NVIDIA is the second coming(no need to mention names, just read their forum posts) even when faced with all the facts of the past. How do you think the masses will react to NVIDIA when they don't have the facts? Despite all its underhanded dealings and problematic hardware/software, NVIDIA is the darling of the masses and of the press. NV40 will probably fix all these problems and will be out be out in a few months. And everyone will forget the horrible NV3x(except people who own them). From the hardcore enthusiast point of view, it's all doom and gloom. Economically, it's bright!

I am not being sarcastic in the above in any way. I am being dead serious. I would not worry about my investment if I had money in NVDA.

P.S. this is assuming the downward spiral stops and NV40 is clean.
I have to agree 100%. What nVidia has done may be unethical, but brilliant from a business point of view. Instead of admitting defeat like Matrox did, they managed to make their products seem just as good if not better than the competition. NVidia spent over $400 million developing the GFFX and stood to loose an enormous amount of money if it flopped. To be honest, if I worked for nVidia's marketing team, I would have done the same thing.
__________________
AIW 9700 Pro | 1.3GHz CeleronT | 512MB PC133 SDRAM | ECS PCIPAT Mobo (Intel 815EP)
RadLinker/RadClocker
ChrisW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-03, 10:09 PM   #90
digitalwanderer
 
digitalwanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Highland, IN USA
Posts: 4,944
Default Re: Re: Bah

Quote:
Originally posted by StealthHawk
Why would you want to do something as silly as that?

*disclaimer* the following is me being 100% serious
Ok, so you know NVIDIA is cheating. I know NVIDIA is cheating. Probably 80-95% of the people on these forums know in their hearts that NVIDIA is cheating, although not everyone will admit it's wrong. But, so what if NVIDIA is cheating? Those of us who have kept in the loop have known NVIDIA has been cheating for 6 months. Since last year when the r9700 launched I don't think NVIDIA has lost a single percentage point of discrete desktop market share(last quarter they lost some total market share, which is the first drop since r9700 was launched last Fall). They have the largest DX9 market courtesy of the gfFX5200. Major websites like [H], Toms, and Anand have hardly covered NVIDIA's antics(mostly because they refused to look at synthetic "useless" benchamrks). The masses don't know about NVIDIA's cheating. The masses probably don't even care about it. From a company standpoint, NVIDIA is doing very well considering the products they have out and the things they've done. They just keep dishing the PR out and everyone buys it. NVIDIA from a company standpoint has done enviously well. Are they morally bankrupt? Most likely. But they continue to play the game well and succeed. Even today, you can find certain people out there who believe NVIDIA is the second coming(no need to mention names, just read their forum posts) even when faced with all the facts of the past. How do you think the masses will react to NVIDIA when they don't have the facts? Despite all its underhanded dealings and problematic hardware/software, NVIDIA is the darling of the masses and of the press. NV40 will probably fix all these problems and will be out be out in a few months. And everyone will forget the horrible NV3x(except people who own them). From the hardcore enthusiast point of view, it's all doom and gloom. Economically, it's bright!

I am not being sarcastic in the above in any way. I am being dead serious. I would not worry about my investment if I had money in NVDA.

P.S. this is assuming the downward spiral stops and NV40 is clean.
I agree with your assessment, up until this point we've come to with Half-life2 and it's benchmark preliminary results.

If when the benchmark comes out and the game all those people who bought into the nVidia hype are going to discover it's just hype and will quickly learn what the rest of us have known for a while, and they're going to be mad and they're going to turn to nVidia for answers/explanations.

What happens after that is what I like to call, "the interesting bits".

The big sites didn't ignore the benchmark preliminary findings, and it's caused a bit of a stir...but only in the community I'll grant you.

When Half-life2 the game comes out it's going to be a different story entirely, guaranteed. It'll simply be too big to miss, I really think this sequel to Half-life is going to be just as revolutionary and evolutionary in it's own way as the first one was...and the only victim and loser for it's success will be nVidia.

It won't continue forever Stealth, we're right now in the last few weeks/months of the endgame bit and it's going to get a whole lot more interesting as time goes by. You and I both know that nVidia ain't going to be able to find a magic bullet to fix this, I just can't wait to see how nVidia and the big sites who've been backing them deal with/react when the reality of this whole thing hits the general public.

Stick around and try and be patient Stealth, it's not a situation that can stay stagnant much longer.
__________________
[SIZE=1][I]"It was very important to us that NVIDIA did not know exactly where to aim. As a result they seem to have over-engineered in some aspects creating a power-hungry monster which is going to be very expensive for them to manufacture. We have a beautifully balanced piece of hardware that beats them on pure performance, cost, scalability, future mobile relevance, etc. That's all because they didn't know what to aim at."
-R.Huddy[/I] [/SIZE]
digitalwanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-03, 10:22 PM   #91
StealthHawk
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Re: Re: Bah

Quote:
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
I agree with your assessment, up until this point we've come to with Half-life2 and it's benchmark preliminary results.

If when the benchmark comes out and the game all those people who bought into the nVidia hype are going to discover it's just hype and will quickly learn what the rest of us have known for a while, and they're going to be mad and they're going to turn to nVidia for answers/explanations.

What happens after that is what I like to call, "the interesting bits".

The big sites didn't ignore the benchmark preliminary findings, and it's caused a bit of a stir...but only in the community I'll grant you.

When Half-life2 the game comes out it's going to be a different story entirely, guaranteed. It'll simply be too big to miss, I really think this sequel to Half-life is going to be just as revolutionary and evolutionary in it's own way as the first one was...and the only victim and loser for it's success will be nVidia.
Aha! But according to NVIDIA Det50 will come out before the HL2 benchmark does. So everyone will upgrade to Det50 and the performance will be higher, whether IQ decreases or whatnot. Nobody is as fickle as the 3d crowd. They will all pass off the preliminary HL2 benchies as unoptimized drivers...which will actually be true in a sense

Quote:
It won't continue forever Stealth, we're right now in the last few weeks/months of the endgame bit and it's going to get a whole lot more interesting as time goes by. You and I both know that nVidia ain't going to be able to find a magic bullet to fix this, I just can't wait to see how nVidia and the big sites who've been backing them deal with/react when the reality of this whole thing hits the general public.

Stick around and try and be patient Stealth, it's not a situation that can stay stagnant much longer.
NVIDIA has gotten so used to getting away with it I just wonder if they will continue with NV40. Imagine, if you will, hardware that is excellent along with cheating drivers. It would be a force to be reckoned with, a force that would utterly smash ATI's offering into the ground.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-03, 10:50 PM   #92
digitalwanderer
 
digitalwanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Highland, IN USA
Posts: 4,944
Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Bah

Quote:
Originally posted by StealthHawk
Aha! But according to NVIDIA Det50 will come out before the HL2 benchmark does. So everyone will upgrade to Det50 and the performance will be higher, whether IQ decreases or whatnot. Nobody is as fickle as the 3d crowd. They will all pass off the preliminary HL2 benchies as unoptimized drivers...which will actually be true in a sense
I think the visual differences in Half-life2 will be so extreme in that case that even a 13 year old nVidiot fanboy from hell will be able to notice the difference and will be pissed.

The hardware ain't designed for DX9, and it is going to show one way or another because Half-life2 is going to get BIG coverage from every angle, and it will be out in time for x-mas upgrade season.

Can we agree to disagree on this one for now since time will tell us either way? (And not really all that much time, I really think we're talking a month tops. )
__________________
[SIZE=1][I]"It was very important to us that NVIDIA did not know exactly where to aim. As a result they seem to have over-engineered in some aspects creating a power-hungry monster which is going to be very expensive for them to manufacture. We have a beautifully balanced piece of hardware that beats them on pure performance, cost, scalability, future mobile relevance, etc. That's all because they didn't know what to aim at."
-R.Huddy[/I] [/SIZE]
digitalwanderer is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 09-13-03, 11:07 PM   #93
penner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 29
Default i don't get it...

so nobody else is really saying it, but i thought id chime in my opinion...im sure i'll be attacked for it but whatever...

http://207.35.94.138/mirror/difference.gif

this is what all the fuss is about? really?!! is this supposed to be evidence of nvidias cheating and/or sacrificing image quality?

to tell the truth, after all this hooplah i was conscidering trading in my 5900 for a radeon but after seeing these comparisons im glad i run nvidia cuz to me...well, in this comparison i think the 5900 looks better.

heres what i see:

everyones saying that the lighting looks jacked on the 5900, i assume its cuz the ship in the bg looks darker...but to me it looks more detailed, like it has a more detailed texture with dirt streaks or something...on the radeon it looks washed out to me. also the ground looks darker on the 5900 but not any less detailed, i think that just a subjective thing...the ground looks fine on both cards to my eyes. the grass is another story. looks a lot better on the 5900.

also, if the wheels are sposed to have shadows i assume the lightsource for those shadows is the explosion, right? then how come the wheels are dark on that car in the upper right whose wheels are facing the explosion? on the 5900 all the wheels have much more detail and

keep looking at that car in the upper right. notice the top of the canopy. on the 9800 its blurred out, on the 5900 its crisp, in fact the whole texture on the car is crisper and more detailed.

the debris flying out of the explosion is crisper on the 9800, but looks more photographic on the 5900, almost looks AAd, but its hard to tell if thats from motiong blur or something...anyway, i think it looks fine on both cards.

point is, to me, the nvidia looks better. so if they "cheated" or "optimized" the det50s to get higher framerates, who cares? if this is the end result they can "cheat" all over the place as far as i care as long as it looks good and runs good. and from what i see it looks really good. now, running good?...we'll have to wait til they release them publicly to see...

btw, what game is that screenshot taken from and is it dx9 or 8?
penner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-03, 11:07 PM   #94
StealthHawk
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bah

Quote:
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
I think the visual differences in Half-life2 will be so extreme in that case that even a 13 year old nVidiot fanboy from hell will be able to notice the difference and will be pissed.
The thing about fanboys is that they tend to see(or not see) what they want to see.

I agree that most people will probably see the IQ differences. The question is, will they care? Or will they be glad that they can play using the NV3x or DX9 path(even if it looks like the DX8.1 path with new drivers).
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-03, 12:32 AM   #95
rabblerouser
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 58
Default

StealthHawk,

I disagree with your assessment regarding nvidia as an investment, etc. The company has not been doing well lately. Sure it did not lose any marketshare in the discrete desktop segment as of the last marketshare report but they lost about 4-5% overall (with a lot more in the mobile segment). I also see nvidia's discrete desktop graphics share falling in the next couple of quarters. Financially the company has disappointed Wall Street in the last few quarters as well and they have high production costs on the FX 5600/5900 series which is hurting margins.

In addition to that stuff, they have also lost the win for xbox2. Xbox revenues were about 20% of total revenues for the last quarter which is a big chunk and xbox also accounted for most of nvda's revenue rise over the previous quarter. So you can take that away in 2005 or 2006 whenever the next xbox comes out. nvidia will have to grow their revenues per quarter by that much by 2005 just to get back to where they are today in revenues.

These driver/benchmark issues with nvda only are going to make life more difficult for nvidia. Even if the FX series was on par with the 9600/9800 pro in performance and quality, nvidia would suffer because they have been no. 1 in both for the last 3 years. 9700/9800 series really only began to kick in this year and it takes a while to filter down and into the market. I think it has only been about 4-5 months that Ati's 9600/9800 series has really begun to enjoy success on a large scale.

When nvidia had the tnt2 and were starting to beat 3dfx, it still took quite a while for them to beat off Ati from OEM deals and I expect the same to happen here. Nvidia is also enjoying quite a bit of success with the "DX9" 5200 series, but Ati will have a response to that at the end of the year or early next year with their own budget dx9 card, and it will almost certainly be a lot faster on dx9 games.

The better Ati does, the tougher it will be for nvda even in markets they do not directly compete in. For instance, Ati will have the RS300 chipset out soon which should be a good earner for Ati and will allow them to pour back more into R&D, etc.

Nvidia also doesn't seem to be on as good terms as they used to be with both MSFT and Intel, while Ati is very cozy with both at the moment.

Anyway I think that nvidia has a very challenging time coming up in the next year or two and I wouldn't want to be holding the stock through that unless they can reclaim their performance/quality lead on at least the desktop segment. I'd say that ati would be a better investment at this point.
rabblerouser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-03, 12:37 AM   #96
Edge
3d animator for hire!
 
Edge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 3,564
Default

I doubt the image quality will make much of a difference in "casual" gamers eyes. Remember back in the GF2 days when the origional Radeon looked MUCH better? Did it allow ATI to win that battle, or for that matter even allow them to sell a lot more cards? Most likely not, and I don't think the Det50 drivers quality difference, unless it's VERY severe (as in getting rid of pixel shaders all togeather) will make much of a difference.

But of course, to actually see the IQ difference, they'll have to have also seen a 9x00 card or remember screenshots they saw on the internet. If it's not a big enough difference that at first glance they can see it, then they probably won't even know about it. As long as Nvidia doesn't change something major about the shaders in HL2, such as converting the DX9 water to DX8 water, then I don't think most non-hardcore-videocard people will notice the difference unless they're set up side-by-side.

But yes, Nvidia has the most amazing marketing, PR, and driver team, but the hardware team they used for the FX cards suck. Only as strong as the weakest link? In performence maybe, not in sales or stock.

Last edited by Edge; 09-14-03 at 12:53 AM.
Edge is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1998 - 2014, nV News.