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Old 09-14-03, 01:52 AM   #97
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penner,

What you are not seeing in the Still image is that the Entire High Dynamic Range Lighting is MIA on the 5900U.

While that may just look like a little darker image in a still pic it will ahve a HUGE overall effect on ingame play. The exact same will be True for HL2.

The issue is not what one person will chose to like or not like. The Issue Getting the Actual Facts, Performance, IQ Etc.. Truthfully into Peoples hands so they can be free to make their own Decision. Not one Trumped up half Truth Ridden Article and Misleading Benchmark after the next.

In all likelyhood people like you will be totally Happy with what you are seeing with your 5900U... *Until* the Day you get to see the Game (whichever one it is) in Full DX9 HDR Gory.

Thats when the Rubber will really meet the Road.
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Old 09-14-03, 01:57 AM   #98
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But yes, Nvidia has the most amazing marketing, PR, and driver team
Interesting..

I would think that ATi should deserve more Credit for having Great Drivers that Meld Perfectly with their hardware to Deliver Full IQ, Playable Frame Rates. ATi could hack the **** out of their Drivers as well and Gain another 15 FPS or so pretty easily. (by reducing Quality). How is that a Sign of a Good driver team?

Everyone, I think, needs to remember a time *Ever* when someone had a product out over a YEAR before the Fist games Featuring the newest D3D Standards that delivered playable FPS..

It has never happened before.
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Old 09-14-03, 01:58 AM   #99
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Originally posted by Edge
I doubt the image quality will make much of a difference in "casual" gamers eyes. Remember back in the GF2 days when the origional Radeon looked MUCH better?
Yes, the original Radeon looked better - when games actually ran on it. This was back in the day when ATI couldn't put together a proper driver to save its soul. For the longest time the original Radeon didn't have working Windows 2000 drivers. This was when a lot of gamers were switching because 1) of stability and 2) NT's vastly superior OpenGL support. This was the beginning of Quake III and for OpenGL, there was only one name you needed to know - NVIDIA. Once ATI got a working Win 2k driver out, I did some comparisons between the Radeon and my GeForce cards. Aside from the sky looking nasty with texture compression enabled (which was easily solved by turning TC off), the quality differences were barely perceptible, not enough to make people care about ATI's (at the time) lousy driver support.

But I do agree with you overall. Joe Sixpack who buys his FX5600 from Best Buy probably isn't going to see much of a difference between the GeForce and Radeon. But today's cards are extremely powerful, enough to where even the casual gamer should place more of an emphasis on image quality instead of all-out speed. But fortunately, ATI (and NVIDIA to a lesser extent) has cards out that are able to offer a nice balance of the two.
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Old 09-14-03, 02:06 AM   #100
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If you really think it looks better on the GFFX, remember you can always use the NV30 path on the Radeon or turn everything off manually. It may even be faster than it already is. I never thought people would resort to trying to claim DirectX 8 is better than DirectX 9 and that the new cinematic effects in DirectX 9 actually make the game look worse. Let's get rid of the ugly high precision floating point color and high quality lighting effects and replace then with their low quality DirectX 8 counterparts?
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Old 09-14-03, 02:07 AM   #101
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Yes, the original Radeon looked better - when games actually ran on it. This was back in the day when ATI couldn't put together a proper driver to save its soul. For the longest time the original Radeon didn't have working Windows 2000 drivers
I remember those Days..

I remember that ATi had a HUGE oportunity to become a major player back then. But.. They didnt even remotely have the Right people in place to accomplish something like that back then.

I remember being all excited about the origional Radeon and Finally getting to mess around with one At Work. Quake3 was a COMPLETE and TOTAL Jerky mess of Unplayable *Crapola*.

Talk about a Huge letdown.

Thank God the new Leadership at ATi have Taken the Challenge seriously and have Taken ATi into Serious leadership territory.
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Old 09-14-03, 02:09 AM   #102
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remember you can always use the NV30 path on the Radeon or turn everything off manually
Um....

The Nv30 patch *optimizations* would be completely ignored by the ATi cards. They Dont know the meaning of _PP
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Old 09-14-03, 06:23 AM   #103
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Originally posted by rabblerouser
StealthHawk,

I disagree with your assessment regarding nvidia as an investment, etc. The company has not been doing well lately. Sure it did not lose any marketshare in the discrete desktop segment as of the last marketshare report but they lost about 4-5% overall (with a lot more in the mobile segment). I also see nvidia's discrete desktop graphics share falling in the next couple of quarters. Financially the company has disappointed Wall Street in the last few quarters as well and they have high production costs on the FX 5600/5900 series which is hurting margins.

In addition to that stuff, they have also lost the win for xbox2. Xbox revenues were about 20% of total revenues for the last quarter which is a big chunk and xbox also accounted for most of nvda's revenue rise over the previous quarter. So you can take that away in 2005 or 2006 whenever the next xbox comes out. nvidia will have to grow their revenues per quarter by that much by 2005 just to get back to where they are today in revenues.

These driver/benchmark issues with nvda only are going to make life more difficult for nvidia. Even if the FX series was on par with the 9600/9800 pro in performance and quality, nvidia would suffer because they have been no. 1 in both for the last 3 years. 9700/9800 series really only began to kick in this year and it takes a while to filter down and into the market. I think it has only been about 4-5 months that Ati's 9600/9800 series has really begun to enjoy success on a large scale.

When nvidia had the tnt2 and were starting to beat 3dfx, it still took quite a while for them to beat off Ati from OEM deals and I expect the same to happen here. Nvidia is also enjoying quite a bit of success with the "DX9" 5200 series, but Ati will have a response to that at the end of the year or early next year with their own budget dx9 card, and it will almost certainly be a lot faster on dx9 games.

The better Ati does, the tougher it will be for nvda even in markets they do not directly compete in. For instance, Ati will have the RS300 chipset out soon which should be a good earner for Ati and will allow them to pour back more into R&D, etc.

Nvidia also doesn't seem to be on as good terms as they used to be with both MSFT and Intel, while Ati is very cozy with both at the moment.

Anyway I think that nvidia has a very challenging time coming up in the next year or two and I wouldn't want to be holding the stock through that unless they can reclaim their performance/quality lead on at least the desktop segment. I'd say that ati would be a better investment at this point.
Well.. when it comes to stocks, you tend to make money by buying low and selling high.. Since this is video card forum, I won't say much, but if NV40 solves problems in NV3x and manages to trump R420, NVDA will be back pretty quickly (it's no longer the startup that hit with TNT you know...) Business IS better at ATI, but ATYT is kinda expensive..
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Old 09-14-03, 06:40 AM   #104
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While that may just look like a little darker image in a still pic it will ahve a HUGE overall effect on ingame play. The exact same will be True for HL2.
Sorry Hellbinder, but you're wrong. Graphics have nothing todo with gameplay. Alot of good Quake3 players, turn graphics down to minimum for far faster frame-rates, and get much more enjoyment out of it.

I remember ppl playing HL1 in software mode and not caring even tho their card could do it in hardware.

Seriously, if you step back from inspecting every pixel of those comparison shots, the difference is pretty negligable unless you're comparing two identical frames together like that, which 99% of nvidia card owners simply wont be doing!! Harcore graphics enthusiasts like you make up a tiny fraction of the game playing public.

And I have to say the lighting may be mucked around with, but unless you show every nvidia card owner the same image on an ATI, they wont even notice.

And I agree with someone else's post, I think the texture detail is better on the NV card. The window canopoy on the vehicle on the top right, is far blurrier on the ATI card. Some of the hills look more crisper on the NV card to.
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Old 09-14-03, 06:48 AM   #105
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Originally posted by Nutty
Sorry Hellbinder, but you're wrong. Graphics have nothing todo with gameplay. Alot of good Quake3 players, turn graphics down to minimum for far faster frame-rates, and get much more enjoyment out of it.

I remember ppl playing HL1 in software mode and not caring even tho their card could do it in hardware.

Seriously, if you step back from inspecting every pixel of those comparison shots, the difference is pretty negligable unless you're comparing two identical frames together like that, which 99% of nvidia card owners simply wont be doing!! Harcore graphics enthusiasts like you make up a tiny fraction of the game playing public.

And I have to say the lighting may be mucked around with, but unless you show every nvidia card owner the same image on an ATI, they wont even notice.

And I agree with someone else's post, I think the texture detail is better on the NV card. The window canopoy on the vehicle on the top right, is far blurrier on the ATI card. Some of the hills look more crisper on the NV card to.
that's not gameplay, that's being a frag-*****.

imo, good gameplay usually involves immersion and interaction with a world and a story.

people turn down details in Q3 to AVOID becoming immersed and to see things simply as "wall" or "person", then click on person to kill. it's more like a pong style of gaming.

enthusiasts that care about graphics may only be a tiny fraction, but this is the tiny fraction that buys "high-end" cards like 5900u. thus they WILL be disappointed.
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Old 09-14-03, 06:50 AM   #106
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They do because fancy gfx are off putting.
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Old 09-14-03, 06:54 AM   #107
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Nutty, your post is self-contradicting.
You say the IQ difference is negligeble when R3xx is better in most people's opinion.
But you mention the even more negligeble IQ difference when NV3x is better in your opinion.

So what do you want to say basically?
You are just dodging the main point.
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Old 09-14-03, 07:01 AM   #108
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Maybe you should read the post more carefully.

I said they were negligable _UNLESS_ you compare them side by side. If you looked at the ATI shot in one shop, then walked into another shop showing the NV one, I doubt you'd remember any difference.

But on close comparisons, I said the NV looks like it has better texture detail.

I'm just saying most ppl wont be bothered by a small detail as lighting change. Hell you could even disable lighting alltogether, and most ppl wouldn't even notice unless you slapped them with an ATI shot, and explained what was happening.
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