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Old 09-17-03, 11:58 AM   #97
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Quote:
in cases like 5600 vs 9600 I see the quality diff being tremendous - but what about 5900 vs 9800? That gap wont be as large, will it? Especially with goodies turned on?
The Quality is Virtually flatlined between the cards. Regardless of the Rendering path.

As for Speed the difference with them all running their Default paths at full Quality will be between 3-15 FPS im guessing. With Nvidia in the lead. At medium Quality the Difference will Grow larger in favor on Nvidia.

I am just not sure about the 5600U Vs 9600 pro.

It will be a lot more interesting to see R360 Vs Nv38 and Rv360 Vs Nv(i forget)
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Old 09-17-03, 12:01 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
This is an argument from the DX6/7 days. It has not been as accurate a point since DX8. Its even less accurate with Dx9.

OpenGL is Good, But it is not a Magic Carpet. OpenGL also lacks the Set Standards that DX9 has. Which is both a Good and VERY BAD thing at the same time. Our famous Ace in the hole Doom-III is a prime example. Where Nvidia gets to run the game at an average of about 1/3 or LESS the Percision of Their ATi Counterparts. The Reduced Quality is being Cleverly *Hidden* by Carmack For the Specific reason that it not make Nvidia hardware look bad. This is another case where Money Talks. Believe it.

In other words the overall Possible Quality that the game could show is being intentionally Crippled by some tricky internal code in order to put the VASTE differences between Rendering Quality paths on an Even playing field. The whole thing is made possible becuase of Proprietary IQ reducing and Shortcut filled Extensions Nvidia coded for their Poorly performing hardware.

Thus it is at the same time A Blessing (For Nvidia users) and a Curse (For everyone else).
See, this is good information. Thank you for bringing me up to speed on this. I had no idea the gap between OGL and DX had narrowed so much with the updates of DX8 and 9.
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Old 09-17-03, 12:02 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
The Quality is Virtually flatlined between the cards. Regardless of the Rendering path.

As for Speed the difference with them all running their Default paths at full Quality will be between 3-15 FPS im guessing. With Nvidia in the lead. At medium Quality the Difference will Grow larger in favor on Nvidia.

I am just not sure about the 5600U Vs 9600 pro.

It will be a lot more interesting to see R360 Vs Nv38 and Rv360 Vs Nv(i forget)
arg. Ya. The NV's will have some features thrown in specifically for it tho wont it - like that ultrashadow stuff that only the 5900 can do right? That should be interesting to see... as long as the quality isnt beyond sucking...

I wonder if Ill still have my 5900 by the time Doom3 gets to me in the mail
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Old 09-17-03, 12:06 PM   #100
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Ultrashadow is a Nice feature. It was created Specifically for carmack. Thats the kind of relationship id and Nvidia have. It also shows you that Nvidia understands the power of id as a marketing tool.

The R360 may level the playingfield somewhat.
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Old 09-17-03, 12:30 PM   #101
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So your saying that Carmack is a sell out?

I was thinking he would be if he took Microsoft up on the offer to delay Doom3 on the PC so the Xbox could get the exclusive. So far it looks like he will not delay the PC version.

I was wondering if Carmack was going to hurt ATI in Doom3. Remember the rumours about Carmack thinking it was ATI that leaked the Doom3 alpha? He did say the people responsible would pay. I guess we will find out.

I don't think Doom3 will run bad on ATI but I think Carmack is working his little tail off to make sure the Nvidia path looks as good as the ATI path. I don't see how since it will be using reduced precision.



Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
I am usually talking sence. Its the message people dont like sometimes. Plus i cut the crap and just say it. (Btw I have had the Flu for the last 3-4 days)

This is an argument from the DX6/7 days. It has not been as accurate a point since DX8. Its even less accurate with Dx9.

OpenGL is Good, But it is not a Magic Carpet. OpenGL also lacks the Set Standards that DX9 has. Which is both a Good and VERY BAD thing at the same time. Our famous Ace in the hole Doom-III is a prime example. Where Nvidia gets to run the game at an average of about 1/3 or LESS the Percision of Their ATi Counterparts. The Reduced Quality is being Cleverly *Hidden* by Carmack For the Specific reason that it not make Nvidia hardware look bad. This is another case where Money Talks. Believe it.

In other words the overall Possible Quality that the game could show is being intentionally Crippled by some tricky internal code in order to put the VASTE differences between Rendering Quality paths on an Even playing field. The whole thing is made possible becuase of Proprietary IQ reducing and Shortcut filled Extensions Nvidia coded for their Poorly performing hardware.

Thus it is at the same time A Blessing (For Nvidia users) and a Curse (For everyone else).
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Old 09-17-03, 12:52 PM   #102
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HB got part of it.

Here is the skinny on DX and a general comment on how it is doing.

DX7 and earlier were all written in C++ and strongly mimicked the Windows architecture itself (GUiD's and all).

Microsoft got tired of being the step child in the 3D world and installed a new programmer, one that knew diddly about C++, but new C really well. Thus commenced the overhaul of DX. When DX8 hit the streets it was like a breath of fresh air. THe API looked like a lower level API, instead of another Windows application. Not only that, it was faster due to the lack of overhead in the new code.
This programmer carried forth his implementation to DX9, which is the leanest and fastest version of DX yet.
Unfortunately for Microsoft, this programmer is now working at ATI.

Part of DX's 'bloat' comes from supporting the all previous versions of DX in the same bundle. You can still run DX5 games under DX9, for example. This is truely an accomplishment if you know anything about DX, you know what I mean.
Another part of the bloat is Microsoft has almost the complete Windows structure under DX. Theoritically, one could write a full business class application in DX. The libraries are not available, but the messaging system is 100% active and intact. As a matter of fact, this is where most DX programmers goof. They forget to handle the messages and the result is, the game code runs about 10-15% slower.
Another are that makes it appear bloated is all the other support DX gives a dev. Input/Output, Sound, Network (on engineering hold at MS,..may go away), and other interfaces. Some people make no big deal out of this, but the device input support is a god send to any game dev that requires special devices (joysticks, mouse pads, wheels, pedals...). This is one area that makes DX a tough one to avoid.
The consistency of the API, regardless of what type of device you are dealing with, makes it easier to use. Once you get one interface down, you pretty well have a handle on all of them.

Now, OpenGL, in my opinion (and many others), has a much better pipeline architecture than DX, but as far as ease of use, today, they are pretty close to each other, as long as you are working with DX9. Feature wise, OpenGL usually defines things before DX does, but DX usually beats OpenGL to the market with the new features. Not always, but usually.

I would defer to Nutty for further comments about OpenGL.
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Old 09-17-03, 01:17 PM   #103
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This programmer carried forth his implementation to DX9, which is the leanest and fastest version of DX yet.
Unfortunately for Microsoft, this programmer is now working at ATI.
Heh... i had forgotten about that.

Its not only Artx that has Brought ATi to the Forefront today. Philip Taylor is a Key addition oh about a year or so ago. The Chief DX Architect responsible for Dx8 and Dx9 is now one of the Senior Engineers at Ati.

That is pretty Heavily stacking the deck in favor of ATi.

Is it any wonder Ati nailed DX9 support? Or Got the Xbox2 deal?
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Old 09-17-03, 01:31 PM   #104
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Nice read, Skuzzy. Clued me in a little better on DirectX.
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Old 09-17-03, 01:40 PM   #105
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There are so many unnoticed things that ATI has been doing the last 3 years that all lead to the R3xx products.

Problem: How to cram millions of resistors into a.15 micron package and run it at high clocks?
Answer: Strike a technology agreement with Intel. They did it already.

Problem: Our drivers suck.
Answer: Hire the best 3D graphics programmers we can, that have proven track records. Nice place to start would be at Microsoft.

Problem: Our drivers are ok, but we need full DX support, or as much as we can in hardware.
Answer: We have the DX lead programmer, let's make nice with MS and see what else is down the road and say 'yes' to everything and then do it.

Problem: Who is gonna design this shizz?
Answer: Buy Artx

Problem: This shizz is too complex to continue from scratch every time!
Answer: Get the CAD guys to find/buy the tools to make all this modularized and reuseable.

Problem: Our image sucks
Answer: Put key people in touch with the community on the WEB boards, give away stuff, attend trade shows and give more stuff away, call the devs and hand them free stuff, fund some games for cryin out loud, and build hardware that will market itself.

Problem: NVidia got the XBox deal
Answer: In due time.


They seem to be on a roll, and it is mostly from some very well thought out management decisions and plans. They stayed focused and followed through. Hard to take away from what they have accomplished.
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Old 09-17-03, 01:43 PM   #106
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Heh, I like opengl, can you tell from my desc..

The way I see it, I can even forsee DX being phased out. Well D3D at least. If Linux gets a good market share (and its on the increase) I think more ppl will start to use it. Apple dropped their own 3d API, and integrated GL directly into the OS.

It makes sense in the long run. Wouldn't it be great if M$ integrated OpenGL into DX. There'd be no-more bitching about which API to use.. And M$ and the ARB could all agree on future directions. Standards are good. Standards are even better when 1 company doesn't have absolute control.

But as long as the Xbox is about, alot of PC games will make use of DX for easy porting to Xbox, thus more revenue. Its quite a good plan by M$ to try and control the 3d API of games.

OpenGL is just appearing on mobile phones for games n stuff.. and that is a _huge_ ass market thats just coming to life. Theres probably more ppl that have mobile phones than pc's!

And OpenGL will always be around even after id Software closes.. it is used for _alot_ of stuff, not just games.

As for performance, submitting primitives is faster in OpenGL, because D3D does a kernal switch to ring 0 each time, so its alot more important to batch bigger in D3D.
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Old 09-17-03, 01:49 PM   #107
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hah. Nutty you never let us down. Good post!
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Old 09-17-03, 01:56 PM   #108
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I kind of hope both will stay around. The competition between them is good and it does push the envelope in design of the API's.

Microsoft will never adopt OpenGL, at least not directly. It may slide in over time, but it won't be one of those, "Hey, let's forget about DX and go to OpenGL", kind of things.

Of course,..DX10 may have some surprises for a lot of people. 'Surprises' may be too weak of a word. The future looks neat.
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