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Old 10-03-03, 12:17 PM   #145
Sazar
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Originally posted by $E Mun$
WHHHATTTT....someone has proved Hellbinder wrong....LOL


I said it first... I said it first...

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Old 10-03-03, 12:26 PM   #146
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Originally posted by jimmyjames123
Sure, the 2nd hand info is questionable and should be taken with a grain of salt (although Anand claims that it is a reliable source). I was referring to some people on some other forums (like FM) who were severely criticizing Anand for benchmarking and showing data with that one particular setting. Yes it would be nice to see more resolutions and more settings, but he may have been crunched for time, who knows. Hopefully in part 2 of his review we will actually see some official NV drivers and some good IQ comparisons.
well...Lars from tomshardware turned the benchmarking offer down...so...
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Old 10-04-03, 05:16 AM   #147
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A comon fanboy thinking:

New Nvidia driver to increase the FX cards so they are almost as good as a 9800 = Cheats
New ATi drivers that give a %25 increase in performance = Better programing to gain performance.

God is tihs going to happen every time nvidia comes out with something. Let it go....ATi cheated in the past and you dont hear any nvidia fanboys still ranting about how the new cats cheat. Stop thinking the new nvidia drivers instantly cheat. Also if you dont have a nvidia card your not allowed to comment on the drivers at all! God you fanboys piss me off
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Old 10-04-03, 05:44 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally posted by WarheadMM
A comon fanboy thinking:

New Nvidia driver to increase the FX cards so they are almost as good as a 9800 = Cheats
New ATi drivers that give a %25 increase in performance = Better programing to gain performance.

God is tihs going to happen every time nvidia comes out with something. Let it go....ATi cheated in the past and you dont hear any nvidia fanboys still ranting about how the new cats cheat. Stop thinking the new nvidia drivers instantly cheat. Also if you dont have a nvidia card your not allowed to comment on the drivers at all! God you fanboys piss me off
Err |WTF|??? Please tell me where in modern games over the recent cats (say 3.4 and up) there is cheating... I would dearly love to know...

The recent det's have shown there to be cheating and we haven't had a set yet since hmm 43.03 I think... although it may be earlier than that... where there hasn't been cheating.

Once NV have officially released three or four driver sets without cheats, with IQ and with performance then they can be considered trustworthy with their drivers again. Until then we 'fanATIcs' have every right to be suspiscious of NV and assume tha tall their 'amazing performance enhancements' are purely as a result of cheating.

And FYI in the past few years or so I have had rage pro, GF2MX, GF2MX400, GF4ti4200, GF4ti4600, radeon 9700pro.

I still use the 4200 in another minor gaming PC and the radeon is in my main gaming PC.... I use 43.03 det drivers and omega 3.7 cats.
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Old 10-04-03, 06:29 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by jimmyjames123
Why is it so difficult for you to answer a simple question without the hyperbole?
Because your fanboy mind refuse to get it.

Quote:
Obviously you must be confused when you interpret an observation to be a "rant".
I take it as a rant for you are trying to insinuate the notion that HL2 benchmark is biased/invalid by overemphasizing minor/negligible issues - mixed mode fps is lower: obviously mistake, only 2-3 frame difference: 2~3 frames out of 10 frames is not 'only'.

Quote:
That's a BS answer, and you know it. I was talking about the graphs that are all on the same page next to each other. Duh.
I think mine is not as B* as your discovery of faster FX5600 in full-precision mode.
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Old 10-04-03, 06:35 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by WarheadMM
New Nvidia driver to increase the FX cards so they are almost as good as a 9800 = Cheats
New ATi drivers that give a %25 increase in performance = Better programing to gain performance.
Well, first off a 25% increase is rediculously good for drivers, so no matter who posts it I'm apt to treat them very skeptically. 25% for certain games (or certain parts of certain games/tests) is more common, but tends to point to normalizing a deficiency of some sort. And if not THAT, then... uh... that "thing" wherein one doesn't quite do the same thing one should be doing.

Secondly, nVidia's recent track record makes it hard to not think one thing in particular first--especially since hardware limitations are also known. Meanwhile, we've SEEN IQ degradation in plenty of places, we've seen them get worse from driver to driver, and the 5x.xx is supposed to deliver better than what we see NOW, so...? What are the chances they've managed to continue pouring on even more performance while resolving every IQ issue they've had since before 44.03?

Quote:
Originally posted by WarheadMM
God is tihs going to happen every time nvidia comes out with something.
For the time being, likely. Just as, for years, we would sigh and say "yay, another great ATi card with horrible drivers!" Substantial changes have to be measured first.

Quote:
Originally posted by WarheadMM
Let it go....ATi cheated in the past and you dont hear any nvidia fanboys still ranting about how the new cats cheat.
I assume you're bringing up quack? To my understanding this was a "similar" situation, except that the IQ came in the form of bugs and were totally gone in the next driver release (or two, I'm not sure). Same responses happening on the net as we see now, same hype, only with the situation actually going away. It seemed to be much more a failure with ATi's communication than anything else. With the Det's we've seen the same "bugs" pop up, only stick around and have many more "bugs" join the party. We've also seen certain practices officially embraced by nVidia that one likely would never have expected from them or ANY company, which has made their general attitude--and the performance of their cards--suspect by default

The only other "ATi cheating" issue I know of was the one that simultaneously came out with nVidia's in regards to 3DMark03, in which they gained 4% (to nVidia's monolithically huge gains), and when the issue was brought to light and complained about, they said "terribly sorry, guys. We didn't change the nature of the test, but we know you don't to see this anyway so it's gone." at which point they removed it in the next Catalyst update.

We can ALWAYS find examples of "cheating" (or at least "see" it) from IFV's, OEM's, reviewers, and all sorts of sources, but it is the nature and severity that make the most difference.

Quote:
Originally posted by WarheadMM
Stop thinking the new nvidia drivers instantly cheat. Also if you dont have a nvidia card your not allowed to comment on the drivers at all! God you fanboys piss me off
Sadly it's hard to claim otherwise right now. And yes, it is VERY sad.

Oh, and on your last point, are you not allowed to comment on politics unless you're in office? Are you not allowed to talk about stocks unless you're a broker? And hey, why are you allowed to talk about nVidia drivers if you own the cards, but never do a stitch of testing, nor care to look around at the websites?

The information is out there and available, and most of us rarely do a lot of testing anyway. (Especially since most people are ill set up to support proper suites--not having the programs, the extra equipment, or the expertise.) If you want to know about a subject you can certainly go to the people who DO know about the subject and who DO test and read all the commentary you can grab, from them or from the community at large. That's how it works, ya know.
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Old 10-04-03, 06:44 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally posted by WarheadMM
Stop thinking the new nvidia drivers instantly cheat.
Currently, it is very rational to think so, unless there are some hidden/untapped shader units in FX hardware.
But i don't remember nvidia claimed that. Or did they?
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Old 10-04-03, 07:47 AM   #152
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You want a developers perspective?

I have been struggling for the last month to get this 5900U to display what I intend to be displayed. The damn drivers keep changing some of my shaders (and other things as well) and impacting what I am trying to get accomplished.
So, as a result, I end up having to go back and rewrite code to get around these damnable 'optimizations'.
In some cases it appears to just ignore what I send down the pipeline, but it does not return an error at all. Quite the contrary, it returns good status all the time, even though it is apparent it did not do what I told it to.

I have a full understanding of Gabe's frustration now. I'm no fanboy. I just want the damn thing to do what I tell it to do. I have been up all night working on this one effect, which the card/drivers claim it can do, but it doesn't.
So, I am left with having to accomplish it on the CPU side and just chalking it up as something the card/drivers is pretty much lieing about. Raising the frustration level, the effect works great on a Ti4600!

On the good side, I am keeping all this code handy with the intent on releasing a utility to show the problems. I am tired and fed up with this crap.
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Old 10-04-03, 08:37 AM   #153
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
On the good side, I am keeping all this code handy with the intent on releasing a utility to show the problems. I am tired and fed up with this crap.
Woo-hoo!! Another new tool for the toolbox!
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Old 10-04-03, 10:45 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally posted by cthellis

The only other "ATi cheating" issue I know of was the one that simultaneously came out with nVidia's in regards to 3DMark03, in which they gained 4% (to nVidia's monolithically huge gains), and when the issue was brought to light and complained about, they said "terribly sorry, guys. We didn't change the nature of the test, but we know you don't to see this anyway so it's gone." at which point they removed it in the next Catalyst update.
overall increase was 1.9%... all of it pretty much coming from optimization of 2 shaders in gt4 where that increase was around 9% or so... removed from next drivers per statements by ati... acknowledgement of optimizations...
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Old 10-04-03, 10:49 AM   #155
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I have been struggling for the last month to get this 5900U to display what I intend to be displayed. The damn drivers keep changing some of my shaders (and other things as well) and impacting what I am trying to get accomplished.
By chance, have you posed these questions/concerns directly to anyone at NVIDIA? What is their response, if any? They claim that they have had some success when working directly with the developers in optimizing for their new hardware.
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Old 10-04-03, 01:51 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally posted by jimmyjames123
By chance, have you posed these questions/concerns directly to anyone at NVIDIA? What is their response, if any? They claim that they have had some success when working directly with the developers in optimizing for their new hardware.
No developer should go through that kind of crap. If f(10) has been documented to return a value of 5 then it should do so. Something must be wrong if NVIDIA's returns a value of 7, don't you think?
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