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Old 10-02-03, 09:32 AM   #61
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Default Re: Re: Re: Anand posts Initial HL2 results with new Dets

Quote:
Originally posted by jbirney Yeap but there is a little thing called DX9 why not force each card to run the DX9 code path then? Thats much closer when trying to get apples to apples.
Not really it still isn't and there never will be with these cards that is the way it is oh well. Once ATI makes fp32 capable cards which they will in the future we will be able to compare them again, unless of course nvda is afraid and decides they better make a fp24/fp48 clone or something lol.

Baron you say clip planes eh... that sucks then people get no gain out of their cards oh well.

p.s. sorry I called people poor saps, I just feel bad if people were misled, btw I realize full well the nv3x plays current games fine and I tell people that but it is the future that gives worries to the nv3x, and the near future too.
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Old 10-02-03, 09:41 AM   #62
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Here is the problem.

Its one thing to detect 5 levels of a little benchmark.

Its an entirely different matter to rewrite and replace 1200 Shaders and other code issues from the FULL GAME.

Do you guys understand why this is an issue?? The Benchmark Numbers are not likely to refect the actual in game performance on FX hardware at all.

Which is what makes this fraud. I understand you guys are going to doubt me on this. I guess some will have to learn for themselves the hard way.
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Old 10-02-03, 09:43 AM   #63
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Valve already optimized their game engine, which I think they know A LOT better than NVidia in the mixed mode. NVidia could have reduced precision even more from FP16 by using FX12.

Frankly, I would not be the least surprised if NVidia used clip planes. Quite a few people (Hellbinder,Uttar come to mind) know that NVidia is doing much much more dirty work in drivers than we even know. When the whole Tiger Woods shader subject was brought up.... Catalyst Maker said something along the lines of... 'so this has finally been brought out'. ATI knows very well what NVidia is doing with their drivers and in what games, yet they don't come out mudslinging and accusing.

Valve better damn well declare an all out war against NVidia. Driver IQ hacks are bad enough, but the line has to be drawn on static clip planes. NVidia had enough money to force Futuremark into a corner, but its not going to work this time. Using static clip planes to inflate specific timedemos for marketing your POS cards is fraud. Its as simple as that.

I sincerly hope that they won't even CONSIDER doing that. I have a gut feeling that Anands numbers come from either DP/BB, and hes publishing them to deliberately put NVidia in a good light. Either that, or he's setting NVidia up to screw them over once the real thing is out. Once HL2 comes out, and users can make their own custom timedemos --- and we find out that static clip planes were in fact being used, then NVidia is in deep ****. Valve has the backing of gamers worldwide, and if they step up to the plate like they did before, other game developers are going to come forward as well.
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Old 10-02-03, 09:44 AM   #64
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Wait until the clip planes are confirmed to damn NVIDIA.
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Old 10-02-03, 09:46 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by serAph
no offense, but you sound sorta stirred up by that benchmark comparison. Are you lettin it get personal?

Kudos to nVidia for pullin themselves outta the rut they were in, thats for sure, but Im still buyin this 9800 pro when it comes out next week to replace my 5900

http://www.ocprices.com/index.php?re...action=reviews
yes im letting it get personal, i payed money for my 5800 (which later was rma'd for a 5900) so shouldnt i take it personally if a company takes my half a grand, and doesnt fufill my expectations?? yes yes yes.. i know, its partly my fault for being such an nvidiot....

i went from a 5900 to a 9800 pro, to me the difference is night and day, well worth the extra $250 i had to pay to get the 9800 pro. now i see what i was missing all along, much better iq, better perfomance in general, especially when using aa and af, all my games run better (except when raven shield has alot of smoke bombs for some reason) and great dx9 support. the drivers are great and i have had 0 problems.

the 9800 is an awesome card and completely kicks the ass of my now sold 5900. i wish i had bought the 9800 to begin with.
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Old 10-02-03, 09:52 AM   #66
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hell, even if Nvidia didnt cheat and achieved those scores fairly - I would'nt go for FX card....I AM IN LOVE WITH ATI's AA!!! And it runs fast !!!
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Old 10-02-03, 09:54 AM   #67
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It is also unfortunate that some of you siimply refuse to acknowledge that there is a difference between an "Honest" Mixed-Mode for Dx9 used in a benchmark and a "Dishonest" mixed mode.

Throw out this notion of an "Apples to apples test" Its nothing but a misleading bloatware statement.

Running mixed-mode FP16/fp32 aginst standard DX9 path is ok as long as the Iq results are pointed out. Its still all very legal and pretty much everyone by now understands to some degree why its being done. Great....

That is clearly not what is happening here anymore. Nvidia is not using a proper "Mixed mode". But replacing shaders ad hock. Which also afects the output. Replacing as many PS2.0 shaders with PS1.4. I can also virtually Gurantee you that there is not even one instruction in all of Nvidias Replacement shaders that are ever running FP32. Its all FP16 and LOWER.

This is the problem. There is already a DX8 path in the game that uses PS1.4 Thus to take the High Quality DX9 path and Subvert it through drivers to 90% DX8 while Still reporting results as "Mixed-Mode" DX9 is outright FRAUD.

Why is it Fraud? Because this is a "BENCHMARK" Not a normal Game situation. Its the kind of thing that can easily only be pulled off in a limited Benchmark situation with a Controled set of variables. Not something that can be easily reproduced in a full game.
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Old 10-02-03, 10:01 AM   #68
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anand posts Initial HL2 results with new Dets

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruined
Not necessarily. Though Valve did make a mixed mode path, AFAIK there are other things Nvidia could attempt to optimize during shader compilation such as reordering instructions for their shader architecture. In the original HL2 benchmarks, the 5900 Ultra was only 20% behind the 9800PRO - based on the nature of NV3x, I see that number able to be made up with optimizations. And, as we can see from the final result of 3dmark03, Nvidia's shader replacement can look just as good as the original if they work hard enough on it, while offering very fast speeds.
*sigh*.. Valve took 5x longer to write the shaders for the FX. Which obviously included shader reorganization etc.. not just dropping a _PP behind all the little instructions.
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Old 10-02-03, 10:03 AM   #69
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What bugs me is we're arguing about whether or not nVidia is cheating with a set of drivers we can't get on a benchmark that wasn't released.

WHY wasn't the benchmark released yesterday? Why didn't they even announce why the benchmark wasn't released?!?!
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Old 10-02-03, 10:03 AM   #70
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Three questions:

1. I see in Anand's comments, about the mixed code path. How can [N] claim there card as DX9???


2. How large are [N]'s driver downloads becoming? Has anyone been looking at that? I have to believe the more custom shaders they add the larger the drivers get

3. Is [N] still encrypting their drivers so people cannot examine them for driver hacks/cheats?
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Old 10-02-03, 10:05 AM   #71
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Anand posts Initial HL2 results with new Dets

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Originally posted by Richthofen
as long as i don't see a huge difference in quality i won't care what Nvidia replaces in that game.
ATI payed VALVE to code that game the way they wan't to have it.
If Nvidia now replaces some things for their cards. Fine...
Pretty funny. Nice 8 Mio dollar investment
There is no other way to say this than that is just a *beeping* lie.

Nvidia had their own custom path made for them by valve. it took 5x Longer to create. The results still sucked. Thus Money no longer mattered they chose the best hardware for their game. Or do you really think that Nvidia could not come up with 9 or 10 or 20 million bucks if they had to to outbid Ati in this matter...

Clearly not about the money here at all.
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Old 10-02-03, 10:18 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by Socos
3. Is [N] still encrypting their drivers so people cannot examine them for driver hacks/cheats?
Yes, but I believe that Unwinder included a de-crypter in his latest RivaTuner....but I'm not sure since the only nVidia card I have anymore is the GF2 MX400 in my son's PC and I like using the 30.82s on it.
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