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Old 10-13-03, 08:06 AM   #25
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Valve must have more than what was released. Or they done almost nothing since E3. Plus Gabe said they are testing levels with gamers until they are perfect and put into the game.

from gamespot interview

GS: What are the specific challenges you're facing in wrapping the game up?

GN: Right now, the most important thing we're doing is watching people play. We learn a huge amount by sitting and watching people play, seeing what works and seeing what doesn't work, varying it. There's this notion of local task completion. This means that they're getting stuff done, that they're getting too frustrated, and that they're seeing enough interesting stuff on a regular schedule.

Then we interview them afterwards. Why do they think they were doing what they were doing? Did they have a sense of what was going on in the broader story? Were they paying attention to the story? What did they like or dislike? We just do that over and over, going through the game again and again.

That tuning of the game and getting those reactions is the best tool we know of getting this final level of refinement on the design.


The leak stuff is too... ungamerly no? There must be more. somewhere.
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Old 10-13-03, 08:14 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pafet


GN: Right now, the most important thing we're doing is watching people play. We learn a huge amount by sitting and watching people play, seeing what works and seeing what doesn't work, varying it.

Maybe those guys that played it could end up this mess....Valve just needs few gamers that played the game to tell the world hacker is lying......if they exist offcourse
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Old 10-13-03, 09:16 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by StealthHawk
I think we need to all get on the same page here. Either the hacker got the current build of the game with up to date source code, or he got old stuff that isn't all too relevent. Assuming what the hacker got was mostly "junk" the game shouldn't need to be delayed that much. Which leaves two possibilities. Either the game isn't close to being finished, or the hacker does have multiple builds, including a very recent build.

I don't see what the source code being stolen has to do with the delay of the HL2 benchmark...at all. There really is no correlation. Wouldn't it be better for Valve to release the benchmark, and show people the thief is a liar and the game(or benchmark at least) is a lot farther along than he/she/it claims? Wouldn't the benchmark have drawn some attention away from the source code/beta/other leaked programs?
I don't believe that the hacker only got junk. I do believe it is very likely the hacker got an incomplete amount of source code and thinks it is all there is. There is no point in releasing the benchmark if everything is going to have to be rewritten as the final scores may not be relevant to the final code. Also, they would not be able to provide it for download from Steam as the code has been compromised.

If this is supposed to be "all they have" then where is the benchmark the reviewers were using?
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Old 10-13-03, 10:18 AM   #28
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Hellbinder, I agree with some of your Anti-nvidia setiments, but be realistic, I cant believe Nvidias(or anyone involved with nividia) sunk to stealing code.That would be completly immoral, and not only that it would be professional suicide.Nvidias still got to work with the game devs, on almost a daily basis,Nvidia cant afford theyre image tarnished any more than it already is.

on a very related note, anyone check out the release dates on HL2.seems they have been moved back up.

http://ebgames.com/ebx/product/235059.asp

was April 4th or something.


http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=645118

same as above.

Doesnt mean crap, but its interesting.
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Last edited by PsychoSy; 10-16-03 at 12:22 AM.
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Old 10-13-03, 11:44 AM   #29
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Couple things...

First off...I don't think Hellbinder was saying that NVIDIA was behind the source code theft or the release. He is just saying that he thinks somewhere along the line they had a hand in it...that is a lot different from saying that they are the ones that stole the code.

Second...to those of you who are complaining that Valve controlled the benchmark platform -- All of you seem to have short memories...anyone remember that Doom 3 benchmark that NVIDIA and ID controlled hardware wise? Seems very similar to what Valve did....except this time it wasn't a driver bug (think of the extremely low scores ATI got in Doom 3 at the time) instead it was crappy hardware.

Third...it seems to me that a lot of you are just believing anything this guy (thief) says. He claims that it is the most recent release as of a few days before launch. I seem to recall Gabe stating that they knew that something was going on around the 19th. Now unless it took them a week to completely secure their network and take the machines with code off the network then the thief is lying. Supposedely the most recent file in the package is from the 26th...do you know how easy it is to change those dates?

Lastly...a lot of you are bashing Valve for having such poor security. I went back and looked at the message that Gabe posted asking for help. There is no mention at all of Outlook Express which everyone assumes that he is using. He does state that he is using Outlook though. A lot of other people have said that Valve deserved this cause they don't run a firewall or seperate the dev machines from the internet or some other crap. Does anyone know how Valves network is set up? No! Because no one knows people shouldn't be spouting BS about how they should have set it up. Without knowing exactly how their network is set up and how the attack was done no one has the right to comment on their security or tell Valve what it should have done cause frankly we don't know what they have done. Yes using Outlook was just asking for trouble...but that is about as far as most people should go when talking about Valve's network setup as that is pretty much all we know.

Anyways that turned out a lot longer than I expected, but I am just sick and tired of seeing people post the same BS over and over. No company deserves this...not even NVIDIA. Oh and one last thing...the $6 Million was for a bundling deal...not a better performance on ATI cards deal. I only mention this because I am sure it will be brought up at some point in this thread.

Last edited by PsychoSy; 10-16-03 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 10-13-03, 01:19 PM   #30
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I don't think nVidia had a single thing to do with this. Yes, they are probably grinning from ear to ear, but they wouldn't be stupid enough to do this. NVidia fan...probably. Probably an nVidia fan/Linux user or at least an ATI hater. If he were a pure Valve hater, he would have done much more damage by leaking the source code after the game was officially released. By releasing the source code before the game came out, he prevented the game from being released in the first place. This gives valve some sort of chance to "fix" the game. The only motive I can see for doing this is because he did not want the users to examine what nVidia did in their drivers to make the game playable and check all the things Gabe said nVidia was doing, like "enhancing" screenshots, etc. Any way you look at it, nVidia is the only company that benefits from this situation. If he would have released the source code after the game was released then hackers would have had free reign to create all the cheats/aimbots they wanted and the game would have been completely ruined. It would have been extremely to create cd key generators and stuff and everyone would have been able to download the entire game for free (Valve would have been completely ruined!)
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Old 10-13-03, 03:37 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Razor04
Second...to those of you who are complaining that Valve controlled the benchmark platform -- All of you seem to have short memories...anyone remember that Doom 3 benchmark that NVIDIA and ID controlled hardware wise? Seems very similar to what Valve did....except this time it wasn't a driver bug (think of the extremely low scores ATI got in Doom 3 at the time) instead it was crappy hardware.
The big difference here is that the Doom3 benchmark was never intended for public release, and reviewers weren't allowed to talk about anything they saw in the benchmark. A clear publicity stunt.

The HL2 benchmark was supposed to be publically available(to reviewer's at least?) on September30. The HL2 benchmark previews even had screenshots. September30 rolls along, and we hear nothing about the benchmark. It has basically become delayed indefinitely.

EDIT -- Quote-fix. --Sy--

Last edited by PsychoSy; 10-16-03 at 12:27 AM.
 
Old 10-13-03, 03:45 PM   #32
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Oh boy..

I'm not a psychiatrist but that post by HB is..well, it doesn't look good.

Look, you're probably a little pissed off because your new 9800XT blew up and you just had to whine at something right? And what is better than to bash NVIDIA?
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Old 10-13-03, 04:13 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by DMA
Oh boy..

I'm not a psychiatrist but that post by HB is..well, it doesn't look good.

Look, you're probably a little pissed off because your new 9800XT blew up and you just had to whine at something right? And what is better than to bash NVIDIA?
I was thinking the same thing... I might show his post to some of my therapists.

I'm actually afraid to tackle him head-on over this, because it might make me EVIL in his eyes. And I have a nVidia card, so I must be working for the Theif (is that what we're calling him now? A clever anagram of thief, I must admit).

I'm guessing HB's just kidding with us, to be honest no-one is dat whack. For example:

Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
Again,,. It is really Sad that so many people here are instantly taking the word of some Stinking Thief when a simple understanding of the Game Development Process proves he is a liar.
There is just as much evidence that this is Valve's final build as there is that this ISN'T Valve's final build. So a simple understanding of the Game Development Process proves, in this case, that he's either a liar or he isn't.

I want to go on, but rth and others have pretty much said everything that I would say here. You've made an excellent point, Pafet, that the beta does seem very 'ungamerly'. From this, though, a simple understanding of the Game Development Process proves that either Gabe was lying, or that he wasn't.
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Old 10-13-03, 05:08 PM   #34
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Originally posted by PenguinJim
the Theif (is that what we're calling him now? A clever anagram of thief, I must admit).
Well, he is a thief. Not all hackers steal things, so he's a hacking thief.
 
Old 10-13-03, 05:36 PM   #35
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Again,,. It is really Sad that so many people here are instantly taking the word of some Stinking Thief when a simple understanding of the Game Development Process proves he is a liar.
Can you elaborate on that HB? I happen to work in a game development process, so I'm wondering what things you find objection too specifically.

You say this;
Quote:
I would like to point out that There is likely not a Complete Build of the game in one package. There wont be until the game is officially put together for an Alpha or Beta Test release. Not necessarily a public one. The games levels and Content exist Seperately on each departments systems with the core Framework of the game. The idea that every system has a singular complete Build to work on is just Ridiculous.
I think this is perfectly normal. How is a programmer meant to see if his section of code works, if he cant run the game? If he can run the game, then he most likely has the full code on his PC.

Its bad development practise to build lots of split off projects, and try and combine them back together.. it just gets messy. The last project I worked on, the whole code team, had all source, and all tools. We also had all levels and data, and audio each.

We also have art-viewer machines setup with the full game, and all levels, so artists and level designers can run the game to inspect their work running in the engine, and to make sure design data functions correctly.

Then theres our internal testers, who happen to have a full build with all code/graphics, from pretty much a few months into the project! Towards the end they will have burned discs to make sure reading from discs doesn't have any problems.

We're all under NDA of course, but to suggest that a full working build with all levels doesn't exist, is just showing how little you know of Game Development Processes.
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Old 10-13-03, 05:41 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by StealthHawk
Well, he is a thief. Not all hackers steal things, so he's a hacking thief.
Psst. Stealth. Comedy.
 
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