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Old 10-25-03, 11:02 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Baron
so, no, the PS2.0 speed simply isn't as fast.
But Baron, they're optimized automagically!
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Old 10-25-03, 11:02 PM   #62
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Not hard to tell who the fan boys are, out 'n force as usual.

But here's the subject '.....then this week we find NVIDIA reclaiming their position as a mainstream leader'

Now actually read it, and put it in context. 'Mainstream' is the US$200 price card. The article is specificaly comparing FX5700ultra to 9600XT. The 5700 scores slightly higher in most tests allowing the reviewer to come to his conclusion. Nothing special here.

'...Using the Gunmetal "Benchmark" is Just plain WRONG. It is so clearly Nvidia dare i say it.. um.. biased...'

Yes, it is biased because it was optimised specifically for nV hardware. Just like other games are specifically optimised for Ati hardware. The reviewer just didn't have a copy of HL2 Demo to bench for an opposite perspective.

It is actually really easy to optmise for each card and make the other look bad. I can write a shader that uses the strengths or weaknesses of FX or 9x series. Hey, I can make the Ati run slow and even crash just by accessing one more textures than the limit in PS. I can make the FX run slow even easier by using full precision or writing short programs using different registers instead of longer ones reusing the same registers. I would normally write a shader that performs well on both, or write different ones specific for each by checking the device Id, unless I was specificaly give another directive by a sponsor, which has happened multiple times during my career.
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Old 10-25-03, 11:08 PM   #63
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Talking Re: Nvidia reclaiming their position as a mainstream leader

Quote:
Originally posted by Dirty
http://www.hothardware.com/hh_files/...efx_5700.shtml



This is da best review of nvidia i have seen in months
Bah they tested crappy games , where is max payn ? no DX9 benchamrks ? Halo sucks.....as benchmark , but yes 5700Ultra does well in old games no complains here


In my opinion Nvidias GeforceFx line is lost cose , i honestly hope they will or should put all efforts to NV40 to improve they speed and first of all AA !!! , ATI AA ROCKS , why can't Nvidia improve it its been same since GF2 , anyways can't wait to see R420 and NV40
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Old 10-25-03, 11:12 PM   #64
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Originally posted by -=DVS=-
In my opinion Nvidias GeforceFx line is lost cose , i honestly hope they will or should put all efforts to NV40 to improve they speed and first of all AA !!! , ATI AA ROCKS , why can't Nvidia improve it its been same since GF2 , anyways can't wait to see R420 and NV40
No, you mean GF3. GF2 was SSAA. Fo' shizzle, nizzle, the SSAA is in the hizzouse.
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Old 10-25-03, 11:12 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ruined
It's competitive in AA speed (tho AA quality is not as good), AF speed it's not as fast but then again the AF quality is superior on the NV cards.

By reviewing most of the benchmarks on Anand's, Tom's, and HotHardware, it's apparent that the FX5700 runs most games as fast or faster than the 9600XT. Yes, there are a few that the XT runs better, but there are more that the FX5700 runs faster.

As for PS2.0 speed, we have yet to see a PS2.0 game with an NV3x optimized mixed mode path running with the new 52.16 compiler. Will be interesting to see when HL2 comes out how the cards stand up, as HL2 should meet that criteria.
Read HardOCP's review, they have similar findings to DH. Any decent lineup of recent games and in depth review will show that the XT pummels the 5700 in DX9/PS 2.0 games and with AA enabled it still scores higher (not to mention looks a lot better). As for your point about nVidia's AF being superior, who's to say that even holds true anymore since they do not allow trilinear filtering?
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Old 10-25-03, 11:14 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg
Not hard to tell who the fan boys are, out 'n force as usual.

But here's the subject '.....then this week we find NVIDIA reclaiming their position as a mainstream leader'

Now actually read it, and put it in context. 'Mainstream' is the US$200 price card. The article is specificaly comparing FX5700ultra to 9600XT. The 5700 scores slightly higher in most tests allowing the reviewer to come to his conclusion. Nothing special here.

'...Using the Gunmetal "Benchmark" is Just plain WRONG. It is so clearly Nvidia dare i say it.. um.. biased...'

Yes, it is biased because it was optimised specifically for nV hardware. Just like other games are specifically optimised for Ati hardware. The reviewer just didn't have a copy of HL2 Demo to bench for an opposite perspective.

It is actually really easy to optmise for each card and make the other look bad. I can write a shader that uses the strengths or weaknesses of FX or 9x series. Hey, I can make the Ati run slow and even crash just by accessing one more textures than the limit in PS. I can make the FX run slow even easier by using full precision or writing short programs using different registers instead of longer ones reusing the same registers. I would normally write a shader that performs well on both, or write different ones specific for each by checking the device Id, unless I was specificaly give another directive by a sponsor, which has happened multiple times during my career.
Greg.. Why are you singling me out? I hardly made Fanboy comments here. Others in this thread were far more critical than I. I even said there was a group of games that if you play exclusively the 5700U is the clear choice.

Dont even bring HL2 into this. IMO that is a "fanboy" thing to do. Nvidia has their own specially coded path by Valve that they spent 5x longer on optimizing. It is hardly the same case as this.

If some people would take the time to stop and think about the actual information thats out there some of the comments i make will seem a whole lot less "fanboyish".

You should also consider that any new game that just got released and is not getting reprogramed by Nvidia has very poor performance. Look at Max Payne 2. This is going to be the case for this card for its entire life cycle. Every few months or so a driver will get released that makes any demo or popular benchmark levels from the past several months suddenly look fantastic. IT has nothing to do with actual in game play and it simply does nothing for any new game that pops up.
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Old 10-25-03, 11:21 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg
Not hard to tell who the fan boys are, out 'n force as usual.

But here's the subject '.....then this week we find NVIDIA reclaiming their position as a mainstream leader'

Now actually read it, and put it in context. 'Mainstream' is the US$200 price card. The article is specificaly comparing FX5700ultra to 9600XT. The 5700 scores slightly higher in most tests allowing the reviewer to come to his conclusion. Nothing special here.

'...Using the Gunmetal "Benchmark" is Just plain WRONG. It is so clearly Nvidia dare i say it.. um.. biased...'

Yes, it is biased because it was optimised specifically for nV hardware. Just like other games are specifically optimised for Ati hardware. The reviewer just didn't have a copy of HL2 Demo to bench for an opposite perspective.


There is a difference between coding towards a standard and coding for a specific vendor. Other games aren't "optimised for Ati hardware", ATi's hardware is optimized to the standards to which those games were written.
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Old 10-26-03, 12:28 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
Greg.. Why are you singling me out? I hardly made Fanboy comments here. Others in this thread were far more critical than I. I even said there was a group of games that if you play exclusively the 5700U is the clear choice. ....
My appologies Hellbinder, I truthfully wasn't trying to single you out. I read the original thread like this: Someone starts thread with issue/subject then depending on positive or negative nV/Ati, nv Fan says blah, then Ati fan says Blah, and that repeats for quite some time. Usually the fans bring in 'supporting evidence' that we've heard many times before. It was pretty stupid of me to even write that first 'fanboy' line, but I'm quite tired of the fan back and forth arguing that often gets away from the original topic so quick that I usually don't bother contributing to the thread. I did quote you, in partial agreement that that particular game is most likely biased (weather intentionally disadvantaging Ati or not, I have no idea.) But wanted to highlight that there are or will be oppositely biased games to compare with. I write this response because I was not intending a personal attack on you and don't want you to feel offended.
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Old 10-26-03, 12:35 AM   #69
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There could never be a fanboy on this forum. "lol"




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Old 10-27-03, 12:02 AM   #70
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DISCLAIMER:
I want to be clear that this post is not directed towards anyone in particular at all. I've not even read every post in this thread and my comments are therefore not specifically as a result of anything in this thread...

I just had the luxury of taking a sneak peek at Mike's 5950Ultra Preview article. For those of you that form your opinions from either extreme...after you read Mike's preview I think you'll realize that balance (as with most everything else in life) outweighs extremes. Mike takes a very unbiased, lucid and professional approach that I'm sure everyone will appreciate and learn from.

Personally, I would like to see more of us (readers, posters, reviewers, lurkers, etc, etc) take a more objectionable perspective on things. The whole "fanboy" syndrome escapes me as to its relevance and ultimate goal. I mean, to what end do those of you that praise or damn one company or another strive for? Both have their faults and successes. Both are very successful, innovative and contributory companies in this industry. Much like AMD and Intel, without the presence of one we'd all probably just now be trotting along on our top of the line 800MHz machines with DirectX 7 smoking video cards.

Lately I've just really tried to grasp the rationale behind many of the obviously emotionally driven statements that can be found in any forum of this nature. Is it attributed to simple immaturity? Is it people just enjoying a good pi$$ing match for the fun of it in spite of themselves and their actual better knowledge than is exhibited? Is it some sort of sense of belonging to something such as professional baseball or football team?

I dunno, perhaps this is just me venting. I could ask myself the same question..."to what end am I shooting for here"...it's not like I'm going to make any difference or change anyone's mind/behavior. I just have this dreamy vision of what I'd like to see in the forums and I know it'll never come to pass...so, in conclusion, just ignore me.

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Old 10-27-03, 06:05 PM   #71
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So MikeC, what card would you choose? I'm wondering why you left that out of your conclusion? It's just odd to have a comparison review and not select which card you would recommend. Anyways interesting preview of the 5950 Ultra... Like the 2048x1536 results (even though I couldn't run that)

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Old 10-27-03, 06:25 PM   #72
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Now that I've been using an ATI card for a few months and used NVIDIA cards for a few years before that... I want a third option. There are too many things that bug me to death about each, and I think a third option would make both of them take a long hard look at what's wrong that isn't a performance or IQ issue. Sure, performance and IQ are the be-all-end-all for 3D, but I've had plenty of 2D annoyances with both.
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