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Old 11-11-03, 10:24 PM   #133
TheTaz
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Baron
I'd much rather they make a cheatproof benchmark.
Err... How?

That's like games having foolproof copy protection from no-cd hacks.

DETECTION WARZ:

"Tree-Dee Mork has detected that your driver has detected that we have detected your driver's detection of detecting our benchymarky and said detection of a detection of a detection is a dectable cheat, hence detectabally un-approved, so Tree-Dee Mork will now close"


Gawd! I'd love to see an error message like that! LOL!

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Old 11-11-03, 10:25 PM   #134
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Beyond3D has an investigation up with screen shots...
http://www.beyond3d.com/articles/3dmark03/340/index.php
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Old 11-11-03, 10:29 PM   #135
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I don't really see any point in having this argument anymore. So what if nVidia is still cheating? They are nearing the end of the NV3x series and will soon be replaced with the NV40. It's too late for people to change their purchasing decision as they have already purchased the card. I really don't think anyone that currently owns a NV3x card cares anymore what nVidia does to get their scores just as long as they get it. It's not like they can return their cards now.
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Old 11-11-03, 10:30 PM   #136
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I guess the only real point to this is it shows again.. that without extra Coding and serious changes the Nvidia cards play at a distict disadvatage. The same is seen in the newley released Max Payne 2.

Yes, Nvidia has *somehow* done a masterful job of making their changes and replacements look the same. The downfall is.. How long will you have to wait with every new release for those special Drivers that Reinvent the game Nvidia way to make an appearance?

Sure in those rare cases like STALKER where Nvidia is practically programming the game themselves. They will have an advantage. (I might add because of Specific code that is intentionally placed there or coded in a way intended to hinder ATi performance)

But what about the rest of the games? As already seen it has taken Nvidia over 6 months to "interpret" and "replace" all the troubble spots in the games, Benchmarks, demos etc that even hint at DX9. Even Heavy Dx8 shader games take a beating in some cases.

In the end.. If the user of the hardware is happy with that then I dont see a problem with it.. on a GAME based level. This all changes imo when we start talking about Benchmarks and other applications used to tout the hardware over a competitor. Just look at the Quote from PC magazine as an example.
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Old 11-11-03, 10:33 PM   #137
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From said Beyond3D article:

Quote:
Many of the image differences displayed here are farily small and wouldn't be noticeable in play
I dunno about the rest of you, but that's all I need.

Quote:
coded in a way intended to hinder ATi performance
Hearing **** like this from you always makes me laugh.

To quote Rogo above:

Quote:
FUD

I see you!
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Old 11-11-03, 10:37 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally posted by saturnotaku
[b]From said Beyond3D article:

[b]

I dunno about the rest of you, but that's all I need.

[b]

Hearing **** like this from you always makes me laugh.

To quote Rogo above:
Wether you believe it or not its True.. There is more than one case of this even in current games. I also know from a Converstation with a developer at GSC that they Turned over development of the DX9 and many Dx8 shaders to Nvidia. I also know that they are not Standard DX9 shaders but in many cases intentionally long and Strung out instructions with SIN operations inserted that dont need to be there. Why? Becuase of the Extra passes it takes on ATi and other non Nvidia hardware thats why.

There are more examples than this.
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Old 11-11-03, 10:45 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally posted by saturnotaku
From said Beyond3D article:
I dunno about the rest of you, but that's all I need.
Not in a synthetic benchmark. I absolutely cannot believe any impartial consumer would write what you did. It truly boggles the mind.

Here's all I need:

Quote:
A new PC game gets released about once a day; about one-third of these are games that really push 3D graphics. Only a tiny percentage of these will receive the dubious "optimizations" that have been directed at previous versions of 3DMark03. Gamers don't want to be locked into these. They don't want to be surprised by poor frame rates when they buy a game outside the top 10. Gamers need uncompromised benchmarks that give them a true picture of performance, so they can find a card that performs for all games, not just the half-dozen for which the drivers are faking it.
I just hope a certain company gets--and excuse my French--b*tch-slapped by Dell again.
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Old 11-11-03, 10:48 PM   #140
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I think this statement about what nVidia's future driver plans speaks for itself:
Quote:
From Beyond3D
Derek went on to suggest that they may well end up chasing each patch release and re-optimising as Futuremark puts a patch that defeats previous detections!
So, there you have it. The next driver set will just re-enable the cheats.

The sad thing is 3DMark03 is not supposed to be a contest. It is nothing more than a measurement to see how well your system performs. Futuremark will take all the blame because the people that frequent their site are only interested in having the largest 3DMark03 score. They are not interested in how their system really performs. They don't care what they have to do just to get a larger score than everyone else. Go read their forums. You will not find one single nVidia owner pissed at nVidia for deceiving them...all you will find is people that think Futuremark is stealing their scores.
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Old 11-11-03, 10:50 PM   #141
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Quote:
Come on man... Obviously They need to keep patching it until Nvidia Quits CHEATING
Define cheating....yada, yada, yada. Its senceless. if it looks good and plays good, does it really matter?...answer NO.
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Old 11-11-03, 10:51 PM   #142
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Well, if I'm head of Futuremark team I would release a patch a day after Nvidia re-enables the cheat. It would be pain in butt for them...

But, guess what? I'm not...so...
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Old 11-11-03, 10:55 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisW
So, there you have it. The next driver set will just re-enable the cheats.
Well... sort of.

Since Futuremark only allows "Approved Drivers" to have scores published... Any new driver wouldn't get "Approved" until Futuremark puts out a patch first... sort of like what happened to the 52.16's.

However... this doesn't stop nVidia from using their own published scores (Not officially on the Futuremark site) of a new driver with a new product (Previews)... for PR Purposes.

It's gonna be a roundy-round battle. Sigh.

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Old 11-11-03, 10:57 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by scott123
Define cheating....yada, yada, yada.
FutureMark DID define it. Look it up.

Quote:
Its senceless. if it looks good and plays good, does it really matter?...answer NO.
Answer: YES:

"A new PC game gets released about once a day; about one-third of these are games that really push 3D graphics. Only a tiny percentage of these will receive the dubious "optimizations" that have been directed at previous versions of 3DMark03. Gamers don't want to be locked into these. They don't want to be surprised by poor frame rates when they buy a game outside the top 10. Gamers need uncompromised benchmarks that give them a true picture of performance, so they can find a card that performs for all games, not just the half-dozen for which the drivers are faking it."
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