New 3DMark03 patch out - nVidia still cheating

[Sazar]

one pattern is sure constant... nvidia based desktop keeps scoring higher in the cpu tests than ati based desktops

[Hellbinder]

Originally posted by Sazar
one pattern is sure constant... nvidia based desktop keeps scoring higher in the cpu tests than ati based desktops

That is odd...

[mrgoodcheese]

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
What are you talking about? The big difference is between nVidia's pre and post patch scores, and that difference says that nVidia is still cheating.

I'd love to hear any other explanations...at least ones that make one tiny little iota of sense.

Calm down there guy..........

OK, now, what I'm saying is, this whole soap opera of "As the World Turns Because of Cheaters" is just melodramatic goofiness.

NV makes it's hardware. NV makes drivers to run it's hardware. NV makes improved drivers to make it's hardware perform better. Owners of NV FX cards rejoice because their hardware performs better with games and other applications, because of the improved drivers. The opposition crys "cheater! cheater!" due to logical fear for justification of purchases. Suddenly, certain benchmarks supposedly have the power to filter a manufacturer's products, to the way they see fit *cough*$*cough*............

Anyway, my 5900 performs awsome in the games I play and the applications I run, and the 52.16 drivers from NV were a very nice surprise and very welcome. I don't play the benchmarks. And I base my decisions on actual user experiences.

Originally posted by Jas28
Man, my day is ruined....my 3dmark score will go down now. But, I guess I am glad that my games run fine with my 5900!!

^^ He has wisdom....

[bkswaney]

Has anyone sent out a blast email to nvidia today about this?
I want to see what the company says this time.

[Hellbinder]

Originally posted by mrgoodcheese
Calm down there guy..........

OK, now, what I'm saying is, this whole soap opera of "As the World Turns Because of Cheaters" is just melodramatic goofiness.

NV makes it's hardware. NV makes drivers to run it's hardware. NV makes improved drivers to make it's hardware perform better. Owners of NV FX cards rejoice because their hardware performs better with games and other applications, because of the improved drivers. The opposition crys "cheater! cheater!" due to logical fear for justification of purchases. Suddenly, certain benchmarks supposedly have the power to filter a manufacturer's products, to the way they see fit *cough*$*cough*............

Anyway, my 5900 performs awsome in the games I play and the applications I run, and the 52.16 drivers from NV were a very nice surprise and very welcome. I don't play the benchmarks. And I base my decisions on actual user experiences.




^^ He has wisdom....

People cry "Cheater" Cheater" becuase they are CHEATING. This has nothing Whatsoever to do with an "inferiority" complex.

Logical fear or Justification of Purchase.. Yeah i am sure feeling that with my 9800XT..

The problem is Cheating and Dishonest Gain are STILL WRONG. Getting people to Buy your products under false Pretense is STILL WRONG. Yet here you are accusing 3Dmark03 of doing evil by making Nvidia play fair..

Sometimes I just cant believe what i read.

As i said before be thankfull that Game Developers are not releasing anti dection code for their games as well. We have already seen through unwinder what the result is when that happens.

[AnteP]

Originally posted by Hellbinder
That is odd...

well ATi usually performs slower (not this much though) in tests with massive CPU dependency
in my experience that is

another strange thing is that I get a very consistent increase in the 24 channel and 60 channel sound tests with the new patch

I spoke to creative and futuremark about it but niether really had any clue yet but both are investigating and I'll have some preliminary reports tomorrow perhaps.

[Skuzzy]

Calm down HB, yer gonna blow a gasket.

Times are changing and next year, about now, should be pretty interesting. Devs are not idiots,..well...most are not idiots. Quite a few devs are switching things around just to be able to properly code things and not spend painful days and nights wondering why things are not working like they should be.
Call for some support and you get told to use some proprietary path/feature in order to get around stuff.

Most people do not know they are not seeing everything that should be seen HB. No sense in you getting all wound up. They honestly believe what they are saying and will continue to do so, regardless of what you are I, or anyone says. I am not saying that to be mean or sarcastic.

Hmmm,..if you didn't know cars were made by other countries you might just believe that Cadillac is the best luxury car on the planet and would express that.

[Sazar]

Originally posted by AnteP
well ATi usually performs slower (not this much though) in tests with massive CPU dependency
in my experience that is

really ?

didnt know about that... I was thinking along the lines of powerdraw and what not and ati did not seem to be drawing as much power as nvidia for comparitive high end gpu's... ergo it looked a little nutty...

I'll have a read through some more compares tonite but from the 3-4 sites I have checked its a repeating pattern... ah well

[SocketAzzWipe]

Originally posted by Sazar
really ?

didnt know about that... I was thinking along the lines of powerdraw and what not and ati did not seem to be drawing as much power as nvidia for comparitive high end gpu's... ergo it looked a little nutty...

I'll have a read through some more compares tonite but from the 3-4 sites I have checked its a repeating pattern... ah well

"Ergo"? Whoa....deja vu!

[sebazve]

what a bunch of cheaters
why dont FM just block the drivers?
and no more need for patches against cheaters.

[Nutty]

As i said before be thankfull that Game Developers are not releasing anti dection code for their games as well. We have already seen through unwinder what the result is when that happens.

The point is, they wouldn't. Unless IQ is being sacrificed. If its not, then wheres the problem?

I mean I dont care that NV is cheating if the IQ stays the same. I really dont.

I dont see the difference with having a compiler in a driver making shaders work better, or a driver engineer making shaders work better. Ideally the former is preferred, but until they get a miracle compiler built, it aint gonna happen.

The whole issue of benchmarks is just totally flawed. I thought everyone agree'd ages ago to stop paying attention to PenisMarks.. sorry 3dmarks?

You should judge a card on what you're gonna use it for. If you're gonna play games, bench it with games. If you're gonna be a 3dmark bragger, then yeah use 3dmark. But frankly, I couldn't care less if NV said, yeah we cheat our ass off in 3dmarks.. I mean I just dont care. As long as my games run fine, and my programming works, thats all I care about.

Whats also annoying is that Futuremark are being paid by IHV money, which comes from you ppl that buy cards, to just sit there and churn out more anti-cheat patches that in the grand scheme of things just dont mean squat.

Why is it okay for JC to code a path for NV3X, but Benchmarks wont?

I'm starting to sound like a right nvidiot now, (which I prolly am) but I'm just soo bored of this 3dmark thing.

I can see the point of view of having a program that is supposed to run identical on hardware, to test performance. But that _isn't_ how things work!

I cant emphasise the point enough, whats the difference between the compiler optimizing a shader, and a person optimizing it, _provided_ the shader never changes? Which it most probably wont in a game.

Shader compilers are here to stay. The next generation of shader systems will be totally high-level, meaning there will be big differences in how each IHV compiles it down to suit their hardware. You just cant have a 1 path fits all valid comparison anymore.

[Jas28]

I guess what concerns me...is the last time NV was caught cheating, it was seen by websites. It could be pointed out that they had cheated. I havent seen anything of this! I have just seen that Futuremark realeases a new patch, scores for NV drop, and you guys all scream 'CHEATERS!' I am NOT saying that NV is beyond cheating again. What I am saying, is until I see something in a GAME I dont like, I am not going to be concerned with what Futuremark does.

I have to say I like one thing that has come from all this. More review sites are NOT using 3dMark anymore. I want to know how the card performs in GAMES not 3dmark. I have come to the conclusion that I DONT like Futuremark at all!! They release a patch, and BOOM scores drop. WHY? They dont say.....its gonna take some to figure it out..if they can.

I have a Radeon 9500 Pro and a 5900 FX. So PLEASE dont call me a fanboy. I think ATi makes GREAT products....I had a tough time deciding between this and a 9800, but price is what got me. I cant blow $500 on a card, so this was a major factor. I like ATi, I like Nvidia, I DONT like Futuremark...