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Old 09-23-02, 04:12 AM   #13
Stavros
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I think its a bit odd

You have AMD, nvidia etc all having problems with the move to the .13 micron process, then ATI come along and say "we can't meet demand for the R300, lets just swap over to 12" waffers and .13 micron process". Now I'm no hardware expert but from what I've been told through reading these forums that moving from .15 to .13 is not just a case of 'zooming in a bit'.
If this is true then ATI must have had the .13 micron part taped out about the same time, if not before the NV30.

Its either total crap, or ATI have just pulled off the biggest upset of the graphic card industry this century

PS. I do think it strange that an ATI insider would say that it would bring the performance up to the level of the NV30, which would mean that currently, the NV30 IS faster than the R300, and I don't think that ATI would want to say that their refresh part will only bring it up to the performance of the NV30 and not surpase it.
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Old 09-23-02, 09:29 AM   #14
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How would ATI know that the NV30 is faster than the R300?
Do they have one?
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Old 09-23-02, 10:40 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philibob
How would ATI know that the NV30 is faster than the R300?
Do they have one?
when even ATI expects/believes that the competition will be superior to their own product, i think we've got a few problems
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Old 09-23-02, 12:16 PM   #16
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Don't be naive. ATI probably knows a good deal about the NV30. It's their job to know. And I'm sure nVidia is aware of ATI's future plans. Business is all about getting into other people's business.
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Old 09-23-02, 01:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
From Anandtech - Inside ATI & NVIDIA: How they make frames fly
Once a manufacturing process is decided upon, it is extremely difficult to, months later, go back and attempt to revise the design for a different process.
I'm sorry, but I have a really hard time believing that the 9700 will be out on a smaller process. The R350, I believe, but not the 9700. Especially not as early as January - March of next year. (Though March is getting close to the earliest I'd expect they actually could get a .13 revision of the R300 off the drawing boards and onto the market).

Just my $.02 US
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Old 09-23-02, 01:42 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by StealthHawk


when even ATI expects/believes that the competition will be superior to their own product, i think we've got a few problems
I dont see any problem at all. I think if any competitor (Nvidia/ATI) has upwards of 5 months or more to pick over the oppositions latest offering...it is a no brainer that they will do all in their power to make sure their part comes out faster.

If this rumor is true , ATI is simply giving credit to the other major player in this industry to be able to take the extra 1/3 of the year and put it to good use in their next product.

Now if Nv30 by any means does not deliver on this anticipated chance...then I think we`ve got a few problems.

Lets face it Nvidia is late here, they missed the boat, not ATI...their part HAS to improve on what the R300 is already delivering. If it does..oh well..It SHOULD...if it doesnt...then its a waste of the extra time.
Its a win/win for ATI at any rate.
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Old 09-23-02, 02:02 PM   #19
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I agree completely.
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Old 09-24-02, 05:29 AM   #20
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that's assuming nvidia refined and improved NV30 over what it originally was going to be. i can suppose that if anything, the memory used would clock higher. but we don't know what, if anything, that they did.

suppose again that NV30 really does use a 128bit bus. i find it hard to believe it would be faster than R9700 in that case. but yes, regardless of what happens, consumers win
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Old 09-26-02, 12:14 PM   #21
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just think about this for a second,

would ATI order 12" wafers to make new .13u r300 parts from WITHOUT actually having the designs ready to be sent over to the fab for tapeout?

i don't think so.

ATI had atleast 3-4 months after original r300 tapeout to be able to shrink the die from .15u to .13u so it's reasonable to assume that they're ready to go smaller for more chips per wafer since they don't need more speed for r300, the yields should be good when using .13u and thus more profit for ATI!

in the meantime they can keep better performing chips out of those made using .13u to use for faster 9700 products in the future!

good strategy!
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Old 10-01-02, 06:12 AM   #22
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The rumors I have been hearing are that a version of the R300 has been worked on at .13 for a while now, evidently as long if not longer than nVidia. The reason the larger die was used in the release was that it was ready to go and would not delay the production schedule. The .13 version there by could very well be close to complete and ready to go. By going to the .13 they could ramp up the speed still futher. Add to this the fact that the R300 supports the newer systems for DDR this means even HIGHER memory bandwidth.

As for the speed question. Any assumption of speed is based on the paper specs for the NV30. So what they would be saying is the new version of the R300 would be as fast as the NV30 claims to be on paper.

The real rub here for nVidia is they lost the leadership role. Even as ATI prepares at .13 R300 they are already working on their next generation chip. Based on the average production cycles, just as the NV30 begins to get solid the new Radeon next gen chip will be coming out.

nVidia is in a serious crunch right now. They stand on the brink of keeping the race tight or dropping out, depending on how they do with this release. However delays much longer than what has already occured could make the NV30 a still born child.

Edward
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Old 10-01-02, 06:19 AM   #23
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even if ATI could bring out an improved R300, why would they do so within 3 months of the launch of R300? no, that is crazy. and it is crystal clear from the naming scheme of R9700Pro that the current card will be the top of the line from ATI for quite some time. we'll be seeing slower, cheaper chips from ATI, not more expensive ones.
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Old 10-01-02, 08:19 AM   #24
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Why would it be crazy? Its all about staying on the top. Thats what is important to them and good for business. There would be nothing wrong with ATI relasing a 400 Mhz clocked part using DDR2. It would be at the same price point at the NV30 and its perfromance would be at or above the NV30. Why is that crazy?

Would I be pissed off? No. I know that every few months someting faster is out. I paid 338 for mine and its working great. For almost a month now I have enjoyed high res, max aniso and AF so yea I am getting my moneys worth. Besides how often do CPUs increase in speed? Same thing with them.......
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