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Old 12-27-03, 11:08 AM   #25
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Yeah, well most progressive rock bands do follow sonata allegro, as well as any other progressive genre.

I don't see how you can sit and listen to Tool, and go "MAN! STUPID SONATA ALLEGRO!". I mean, if you've overanalyzing music to those lengths you're never going to enjoy it.

Just my two cents.

I honestly don't listen to Tool that often anymore, as they took up most of my musical lifestyle in the 90's, and I've heard it to the point where I ended up forcing myself to enjoy it less. There was a point when I was listening to Tool more than anything else.

Now I'm listening to Depeche Mode, Tori Amos, and Third Eye Blind's older stuff (Stephan Jenkins is the best song writer in the last 20 years, IMO).

Well this went off-topic. My apologies.
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Old 12-27-03, 12:23 PM   #26
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yeah it did...

Tool wants to be Tool. And they are Tool.

NIN is NIN. Nobody else is (though Filter and Prick made some feeble attempts)

pop music? heh, I have a lot of appreciation for NIN, but Pop music? sheesh...

and APC is a deserved emotional catharsis outlet for Maynard, sort of a band that helps balance him as a person.

both artists/bands (tool and nin) have worked hard, their styles have endured, and they're both respected...

I say screw bashing either one...

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Old 12-27-03, 12:28 PM   #27
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Yeah, well most progressive rock bands do follow sonata allegro, as well as any other progressive genre.
No, they don't... let's see, exposition, development, recapitulation, coda? Sure don't. Most are just exposition and recapitulation without any development; you know, the simple verse/refrain/verse/refrain of most pop/rock.

See, my problem is this. Tool is, at its core, rock music. For years, rock music has simply been the same old recycled garbage with a few jewels (Van Halen was great, Living Color was great, RATM was great, but that's all I can really think of since 1980 off the top of my head). Tool falls into same old recycled crap. If you analyze one song, that's it, you're done. You've analyzed them all.

Pop music != rock music. NIN is pop music. Pop music has had people that make the worst rock music look like Wagner, but it's also had geniuses like Prince (80s Prince, before he became The Artist). A lot of supposed "rock" music falls under pop, too. Incubus, for example, has a lot of pop elements, although I don't like them that much (a few songs are quite good, but as a whole, it's rather weak). The fun part about NIN is that I can turn up the volume really loud and I always notice things I never noticed before; themes from previous tracks transposed and rhythmically altered in the background, themes from upcoming tracks, interplay of the various layers. It's fun. Tool has none of that. I find the Tool/NIN comparison to be suitable only at the most basic level; once you actually take a look at what's going on, the two have *nothing* in common.

NIN is the best pop music in years (hell, it might be better than Prince.. some NIN tracks are unbelievable), and it also happens to have really angsty lyrics. Tool is your standard brain-dead rock music that also happens to have really angsty lyrics.

Angsty lyrics are all well and good if that's your thing, but meh, I also hate Maynard's voice. He might as well be screaming, "I WANT TO BE DAVID KORESH!" constantly. Or maybe it's just the fans causing me to be completely biased. Either way, Reznor's stuff is simply awesome.
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Old 12-27-03, 12:45 PM   #28
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well you see..

in the small world of this THread, there are people that dislike Tool and other NIN for music. idsoftware doesnt want you to feel like superman or excited ...thats the effect of Pop music .they want you to feel scared to death. so the NIN POP music doesnt have a place in that game..it need to be scary music.but for some people scary music is also excited. .for quake games is a diferent story.. since they are diferent games. just watch this small trailer of american Mcgee alice

http://www.apple.com/games/trailers/alice/


and listen Chris Vrenna magic in action..
for one reason the sound track of alice is a best seller.

http://music.ign.com/articles/390/39...html?fromint=1

im very excited to see what that composer can do in doom3

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Old 12-27-03, 12:45 PM   #29
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:-l
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Old 12-27-03, 12:51 PM   #30
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meh, I'm really sad that this devolved into a music discussion, as if you all remember correctly, the Q1 soundtrack was atmospheric, exactly what was needed for the game... no pop music at work there...

Artists like NIN, Tool, Bjork, Blue Man Group, Dust Brothers, and many others VERY much have the capability to create and atmospheric soundtrack for a game...
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Old 12-27-03, 12:52 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nv40
im very excited to see what that composer can do in doom3
me too
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Old 12-27-03, 01:03 PM   #32
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atmospheric music can be pop music. in fact, I might go so far to say that it is the most pure form of pop music.
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Old 12-27-03, 01:07 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by ragejg
meh, I'm really sad that this devolved into a music discussion, as if you all remember correctly, the Q1 soundtrack was atmospheric, exactly what was needed for the game... no pop music at work there...

Artists like NIN, Tool, Bjork, Blue Man Group, Dust Brothers, and many others VERY much have the capability to create and atmospheric soundtrack for a game...
yep.. indeed
any band can.. but the only game until this date ,that have really impressed me the
atmospheric sounds was ALice. more because i saw what tools he used to recreate some of the sounds for the game.. -> TOYS!!!
are you kidding me..? yes! he used from concert cellos to toys ..to simulate a mix between WOnderland and nightmare land..
for Doom3 he will pick other instruments .. maybe killing a cat and recording the sounds of his pain..hehe.. lets see...that Guy has a lot of imagination ,Doom3 atmospheric music is something that have been overlooked ,since most of the discussions is about the graphics of doom3.i predict that doom3 soundtrack will be a success .

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Old 12-27-03, 01:17 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by ragejg
if you all remember correctly, the Q1 soundtrack was atmospheric, exactly what was needed for the game... no pop music at work there...
That's exactly what I was going to say. You stole my idea !!
Reznor did a great job composing for Q1 and it's rather sad he won't be working on DooM 3 as well. Anyway, I'm pretty sure D3 sounds/musics will be great, well... just because it's by Id software and they always polish every aspect of their games. Doesn't it make you feel better ?

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Old 12-28-03, 03:35 AM   #35
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Originally posted by The Baron
No, they don't... let's see, exposition, development, recapitulation, coda? Sure don't. Most are just exposition and recapitulation without any development; you know, the simple verse/refrain/verse/refrain of most pop/rock.

See, my problem is this. Tool is, at its core, rock music. For years, rock music has simply been the same old recycled garbage with a few jewels (Van Halen was great, Living Color was great, RATM was great, but that's all I can really think of since 1980 off the top of my head). Tool falls into same old recycled crap. If you analyze one song, that's it, you're done. You've analyzed them all.

Pop music != rock music. NIN is pop music. Pop music has had people that make the worst rock music look like Wagner, but it's also had geniuses like Prince (80s Prince, before he became The Artist). A lot of supposed "rock" music falls under pop, too. Incubus, for example, has a lot of pop elements, although I don't like them that much (a few songs are quite good, but as a whole, it's rather weak). The fun part about NIN is that I can turn up the volume really loud and I always notice things I never noticed before; themes from previous tracks transposed and rhythmically altered in the background, themes from upcoming tracks, interplay of the various layers. It's fun. Tool has none of that. I find the Tool/NIN comparison to be suitable only at the most basic level; once you actually take a look at what's going on, the two have *nothing* in common.

NIN is the best pop music in years (hell, it might be better than Prince.. some NIN tracks are unbelievable), and it also happens to have really angsty lyrics. Tool is your standard brain-dead rock music that also happens to have really angsty lyrics.

Angsty lyrics are all well and good if that's your thing, but meh, I also hate Maynard's voice. He might as well be screaming, "I WANT TO BE DAVID KORESH!" constantly. Or maybe it's just the fans causing me to be completely biased. Either way, Reznor's stuff is simply awesome.
I wouldn't go so far as to say NIN is the BEST pop music! Nor whould I say that Prince is ANY GOOD! In fact, Prince is lame! I haven't heard ANY good pop music and to go as far as to say that TOOL's songs all sound the same is just flat out wrong. I personally hate techno and rap, I think they should be wiped clean from the earth! I hate lots of bass in music! I hate stupid beats that change into other stupid beats with no lyrics or stupid lyrics that repeat for 5 mins! I'm not a big TOOL fan, but TOOL has some deep music if you analyze the lyrics and not the beat! And if you're wondering what kind of music I like, it's punk, psychobilly, rockabilly (aka classic rock), oi, ska, some heavy metal, can't go wrong with radiohead, and I like jazz...oh yeah, can't forget honky tonk
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Old 12-28-03, 04:02 AM   #36
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The Baron, after reading your comments about Tool, I just had to make a reply because I feel you're mistaken about them.

Quote:
No, see, every Tool song follows sonata allegro form. Every one. THAT SUCKS
Incorrect. I agree that much of their music has followed the sonata allegro form in the past, but I strongly urge you to sit down and listen to their newest LP, Lateralus, especially the last few tracks (Disposition, Reflection, Triad.) You will see that these definitely do not follow that form. One thing I have noticed is that on every Tool album, the last few tracks kind of break away from what they've been doing and give you a taste of what is to come. (4 degrees on Undertow, Third Eye on Aenima)

What you have to realize is that with each album they have released, Tool has stepped up to a whole new musical level. I still listen to their earlier music on occasion but Lateralus is BY FAR my favorite because it's like nothing else I've ever heard.

Quote:
For years, rock music has simply been the same old recycled garbage with a few jewels (Van Halen was great, Living Color was great, RATM was great, but that's all I can really think of since 1980 off the top of my head). Tool falls into same old recycled crap. If you analyze one song, that's it, you're done. You've analyzed them all.
.
Ok, first of all, Van Halen?!? You've got to be kidding me. Talk about old recycled crap. All of their songs consist of lame chorus followed by the same guitar solo we've heard in every other one of their songs. If you want to hear shredding done right then listen to Buckethead. I'm sorry but Van Halen sucks, IMO they have no musical legitimacy whatsoever. I mean come on, you've never heard Tool on a Crystal Pepsi commercial have you?

If you think that Tool is just recycled crap then you obviously haven't listened to their latest album, and I don't mean just the singles that you've probably heard on the radio (Schism, Parabol/Parabola) I mean the ENTIRE way through. If you did you would hit yourself for calling Tool your standard braindead rock music. Say what you like about their previous work but Lateralus is IMO one of the best albums to come out from ANY band in the last few years.

.
Quote:
Angsty lyrics are all well and good if that's your thing, but meh, I also hate Maynard's voice. He might as well be screaming, "I WANT TO BE DAVID KORESH!"
Have you even read any of their lyrics? Go look up the lyrics for Parabol and Parabola and you will see that they are about as far from angst-ridden as you can get. Also, how can you hate Maynard's voice? He is one of the most talented singers I've ever heard, and IMO Trent Reznor can't hold a candle to him. Not to mention every other member of the band is amazing at what they do, just listen to Danny Carey's polyrhythms and Adam Jones' truly innovative riffs.

I'm not trying to flame you here, but I think you shouldn't go around knocking a band and calling them recycled crap when you obviously haven't listened to them since Opiate or Undertow.
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