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Old 01-13-04, 11:32 AM   #13
SnapIT
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Quote:
Originally posted by zander
SnapIT, don't take this personally, but I'm sure most people value the results of one of the most commonly used workstation/OpenGL graphics performance benchmarks more than your subjective impression with setups you provide no detail on whatsoever. The posted SPECviewperf® results were indeed generated on Windows systems, but do you honestly expect them to be reversed on comparable Linux configurations?
I don't take it personally... :-)

Wrong OS, wrong version of OGL... of course the reults are very different if you change that...

Just like ATI's results with the older drivers were very different, fast as heck on OGL 1.2 but would take forever just to complete the 2.0 test (actually if it could produce a negative result it probably would)...

It is like comparing full FSAA to no FSAA and different versions of directx...

I'm sure you get my point...

Last edited by SnapIT; 01-13-04 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 01-13-04, 11:46 AM   #14
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Originally posted by LaNcom
You know, my old SPEA V7 PCI owns 'em all, it's at least twice as fast as the QuadroFX, Radeon9800 and the Wildcat 4 alltogether...

Oops, sorry wrong reallity... I tried the Wildcat4, FireGL and QuadroFX 3000, and the QuadroFX is the fastest by a large margin, using XSI on Linux. The FireGL was nice, the Wildcat was really disappointing. Plus, IIRC, only the Quadro supports Linux for AMD64... Maybe SnapIT compared the Wildcat4 to the QuadroFX 500, then it would win; but if I have to choose between the 7210 and the 3000G, I would go Nvidia.
Then again, if there really is a way to improve it's performance any further... just go ahead!
The Quadro's AMD AGP module does not support KT800 in 64 bit mode which is why i posted this in the first place...

XSI on Linux with current drivers and latest versions? FireGL is a joke and will hang as soon as your rendering farm sends back the results... Quadro will work but will be extremely slow, Wildcat will outperform it by a LARGE margin, i'll get back to you on how large that margin is...

The only thing i really care about is the agp interface of the Wildcat driver because i made that one, it is the only one as far as i know that uses native 64 bit code for AMD64 and i gave it under the GNU license which would mean that 3dlabs license is invalid...

The same interface can be used with any other driver, for the wildcat it made a BIG boost so i assume other cards will see the same results as most agp interfaces are poorly written (no offence to the programmers, but porting between systems like that eventually produces crappy code)...

I really don't want to turn this into some pissing contest regarding cards, so i'll end this post by saying to all of you, sure, the Quadro is great....

(Just found out that the Wildcat drivers do not include my implementation of the agp interface, i will use it as beta among my customers for a while and when i release it i will post it here)
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Old 01-13-04, 11:59 AM   #15
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Originally posted by SuLinUX
Thought as much, Tomshardware could'nt of been wrong and next time post proof instead of claiming it
This is for you

That should keep you busy for a while...

WTF is Tomshardware?

If you had read my post properly you would have seen why i didn't post proof, the point was the agp driver which i was told was bundled with their new driver, apparently they chose not to release that driver today, i don't know why yet but i have emailed Paul and will wait for his answer...

What you idiots don't get is that i was just trying to help, i will release the agp driver all on it's own instead if 3dlabs does not want it and if you wish to you can use it on your systems then, it is purely for the amd64 and as far as i know it is the only driver that works in 64bit mode with the kt800...
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Old 01-13-04, 12:05 PM   #16
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Originally posted by nutball
You need to read that sentence back to yourself.

I never benched it either (in fact I don't even own a Wildcat), but I can tell you that the Quadro 0wnZ the Wildcat. In fact I can say anything I like! It's easy to talk. That's the problem with people, they talk too much and say too little.
*sigh* Read it AGAIN, on every setup I HAVE TESTED IT ON, you don't even own a wildcat and have never tested it, i have tested both solutions multiple times...

Indeed you talk a lot there and the comparison between someone who has only seen a wildcard on a pic and someone who tries different systems every day is invalid...

I don't expect you to understand that, i just hope you will eventually grow up and get some comprehension skills, though that hope seems to be wasted on the likes of you....

No offense of course...
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Old 01-13-04, 12:17 PM   #17
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SnapIT, sorry, but I'm afraid you lost me...
1. I don't have _any_ problems with AGP on AMD64, but then again, I use an AMD8151 tunnel - don't know about VIA's KT800...
2. IIRC, AGPGART on AMD64 for VIA chipsets works with kernel 2.6.1, but I don't know if there are any performance issues.
3. What is it you've written? A replacement for Linux' AGPGART? And it's faster? And stable? Go ahead, send it to Andrew or AMD64.org, I'm sure they will be excited and include it in the kernel. No, really, I mean it!

Oh, and BTW, I tested XSI using 32bit Linux, it doesn't work on 64bit Linux... If you try it you should see that there is no OpenGL accelleration at all, because Nvidia's 4499 drivers don't like 32bit apps.
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Old 01-13-04, 12:31 PM   #18
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I still don't get one thing. Why the HELL don't nvidia release their drivers as OPEN SOURCE!???

It would be beneficial 1. to the users, who now have access to the source code and can help fix bugs, and therefore 2. to nvidia themselves, since they would have the entire unix community helping them to develop better drivers.

Personally, other than games i'm really reluctant to using a bundled, bolted-shut piece of software for which the source code, and any kind of specifications, are kept locked up away from me for i don't know what purpose.

I remember a while ago i had issues with a piece of **** geforce2 card, and e-mailed several addresses that were listed on nvidia's site. They answered my questions on several topics, but the assholes completely -IGNORED- any reference to open source drivers. I e-mailed them again to AT LEAST have an idea what their position was face to this, never got any reply.

What possible loss could nvidia, or anyone, suffer from releasing open-source drivers??!?!??
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Old 01-13-04, 12:33 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by LaNcom
SnapIT, sorry, but I'm afraid you lost me...
1. I don't have _any_ problems with AGP on AMD64, but then again, I use an AMD8151 tunnel - don't know about VIA's KT800...
2. IIRC, AGPGART on AMD64 for VIA chipsets works with kernel 2.6.1, but I don't know if there are any performance issues.
3. What is it you've written? A replacement for Linux' AGPGART? And it's faster? And stable? Go ahead, send it to Andrew or AMD64.org, I'm sure they will be excited and include it in the kernel. No, really, I mean it!

Oh, and BTW, I tested XSI using 32bit Linux, it doesn't work on 64bit Linux... If you try it you should see that there is no OpenGL accelleration at all, because Nvidia's 4499 drivers don't like 32bit apps.
It is basically a driver that translates the agp 1(64) to 3(64)... (as opposed to the kernel driver which translates 1(32) to 3(64))

It could not be included in the kernel as there is no way to test if the hardware supports it, you just have to know what hardware you got and if it will work for you (you would benefit from the speed increases of this driver too, it is not native to VIA, it is just the only driver that works with VIA)...

It is AFAIK the only driver that fully supports the kt800, i got the idea reading these forums and seeing the problems, then i heard about the kernel support so i went one step further and made a native driver for AMD64...

No, you don't have any problems, but the increase in video performance cannot be very great for you, you are still using 32 bit code to handle it... (it's like using the nv driver, it works, as long as you don't use the card for what it was intended for)

I have produced other kernel modules before so i am familiar with the process of adding code...

Last but not least, it is the agp interface that does not work with the various drivers, my driver and 64 bit SUSE runs XSI just fine on three video platforms, Nvidia, 3Dlabs and ATI, just as it was meant to do...

Thank you for your civil response... good to know there are grown up people on this board too...
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Old 01-13-04, 12:38 PM   #20
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Your claims stand against published results for an industry standard benchmark, are based on your personal experience with system configurations and applications you choose to provide no information on and supposedly backed by proof you refuse to refer to. Hardly a good position for an argument. I'm sure that there will be an abundance of OpenGL 2.0 performance benchmarks in due time, however, and I am quite content to let the matter rest until then.

In any case, the Via KT800 is supported by Linux AGPGART and, if memory serves me right, has been reported to work with NVIDIA cards/drivers on both Linux/x86 and Linux/x86-64 kernels. To the best of my knowledge, 3Dlabs provides no Linux/x86-64 driver, which 3Dlabs driver release and Linux kernel are you using?

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Old 01-13-04, 12:44 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by delt
I still don't get one thing. Why the HELL don't nvidia release their drivers as OPEN SOURCE!???

It would be beneficial 1. to the users, who now have access to the source code and can help fix bugs, and therefore 2. to nvidia themselves, since they would have the entire unix community helping them to develop better drivers.

Personally, other than games i'm really reluctant to using a bundled, bolted-shut piece of software for which the source code, and any kind of specifications, are kept locked up away from me for i don't know what purpose.

I remember a while ago i had issues with a piece of **** geforce2 card, and e-mailed several addresses that were listed on nvidia's site. They answered my questions on several topics, but the assholes completely -IGNORED- any reference to open source drivers. I e-mailed them again to AT LEAST have an idea what their position was face to this, never got any reply.

What possible loss could nvidia, or anyone, suffer from releasing open-source drivers??!?!??
Eaaasy on the coffee there bud... ;-)

There have been a multitude of explanations to this (none of which i actually buy) and it's not going to happen...

With OSS they could just throw out a driver and if it doesn't work right... improve it, it would not be their problem...

Basically, the Linux driver works like a beta tester for Nvidia, they have not released ONE stable branch driver to this date, all of them are beta...

What is stable branch you ask? Get involved i say, if you do not know i don't think i can explain it without you getting involved in the community, i don't have all the answers, but google is your friend, the usenet is your friend, the mailng lists are your friends...

The problem with Nvidias drivers as i see it are not that they are crappy, it is that people are happy to have ANY driver that works with linux, so they will happily beta test whatever drivers are available, without support from Nvidia of course (yeah, Nvidia supports linux like satan reads the bible)...

THAT is about to change... The amount of linux users went up by 100% 2000, 153% 2001, 194% 2002, 364% 2003, the time when Linux support can be ignored is about to end...

Don't expect any questions regarding OSS to be answered by Nvidia, if you want OSS go ATI and use DRI drivers, that is what i do... after the last rewrite it is as stable as hell... still people are recommending Nvidia for Linux as their commercial drivers are better than ATI's, even that is debatable now though...

BTW, for anyone interested, FreeBSD 5.2-RELEASE was released yesterday, now all Nvidia has to do is update the three year old driver for it... (not that anyone uses that POS anywayz) or just get an ATI card and use the DRI drivers...
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Old 01-13-04, 12:51 PM   #22
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Fortunately, there is 3Dlabs to turn to, yes?
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Old 01-13-04, 01:01 PM   #23
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1. the AGPGART for K8T800 works perfectly, only the recognition had an error (search the forums, i found and fixed the error)

2. there are no performance probs with the agpgart
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Old 01-13-04, 01:22 PM   #24
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SnapIT may be right (well, more or less). I don't get it, maybe this has nothing to do with that issue, but I still find it interesting.
Using 64bit OpenGL software (eg. Blender compiled for 64bit, or even glxgears), the performance is very good for me. But using 32bit software, the performance drops to about 30-50% of the 64bit results. I don't know if that's an AGP issue.
Anyway, 32bit software won't use the libGL.so/ libGLcore.so provided by Nvidia...

BTW, I think 3DLabs is not an option (if you want to play games, that is).
I think we all know why Nvidia doesn't release the source. They could release the specs, but I don't even think we'll see that day...

PS: SnapIT, you're right, XSI's OpenGL accel _should_ work on 64bit Linux, but XSI is really picky, I think I'll have to look for a solution elsewhere.
You have your driver working with Nvidia cards? Is it possible to try it, and where do I get it? Does it work on Linux 2.6.1?
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