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Old 02-02-04, 06:15 AM   #25
energyman76b
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Hi,

if your chip&drivers incorporate foreign IP that you had to licence, and you are forbidden to give out information about that IP, like documentating the driver, then you can not open them, even if you want.

Please, stop whining. Nvidia has employees to improve their linux-drivers, do not give them the signal, that we linux users are a bunch of unthankful, whining bullys.
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Old 02-02-04, 10:59 AM   #26
broose
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Quote:
Originally posted by Inaea Plena
>Is there any company which develops 3D accelerated graphics cards and has open source drivers for it ?

Yes. Matrox does, for example. Fairly nice ones too, though their cards aren't nearly as fast as Nvidia's and ATI's. ATI also puts some work into the open source drivers. I don't blame Nvidia for their decision to keep their drivers closed (and as it was stated above, they do have other peoples' IP to protect). They make good drivers... none of the OSS ones even come close performance-wise.

I support open source, I'm a kernel developer. I also support peoples' right to make choices. It's your property, do what you want with it, you know?
The reason OSS nv drivers don't come close performance-wise is because the OSS developers aren't privy to the low level graphics calls.

As for your final parragraph.

If I buy a car, it's mine. it doesn't belong to the manufacturers of that car, and I can do anything to it I want. Supe it up, put a body kit on it, even drive it into a brick wall.

If I buy a Hotpoint washing machine, It's mine. I can wash my clothes in it. I could lend it to a friend to wash thier clothes in it. Hell I could wash the cat in it if so inclined - though I think I'd be in trouble with the R.S.P.C.A.

My point being. If I buy a nVidia graphics board, I should be able to do with it what I want. Knowing full well that should I damage it by experimenting with it, the warranty is void. It's my choice.
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Old 02-02-04, 12:17 PM   #27
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Hi,

well, you can mod your car, but you maybe are not allowed to use it on public property anymore, won't get spare parts or can't use 'official' workshops.
Plus, manipulating the software of your car will certainly void any assurance...

So, in theory, you can do a lot of thing. In practise, not.
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Old 02-02-04, 12:31 PM   #28
Nemesis77
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Quote:
Originally posted by energyman76b
Hi,

if your chip&drivers incorporate foreign IP that you had to licence, and you are forbidden to give out information about that IP, like documentating the driver, then you can not open them, even if you want.


And, like I said, is that REALLY the truth? I mean, they didn't open their NIC-drivers either, and I find it REALLY difficult to believe that a NIC could include some uber-secret third-party IP that must be protected at all cost. Hell, if companies that make NIC's for living can open their NIC-drivers, why can't NV?

Quote:
Please, stop whining. Nvidia has employees to improve their linux-drivers, do not give them the signal, that we linux users are a bunch of unthankful, whining bullys.
And how is this different when Windows-users whine when Win-drivers have bugs? Are they too "unthankful, whiny bullys"? And besides, no-one is "bullying" NVIDIA. People are merely stating opinions. How could we bully NV?

Yes, NVIDIA has employees that work on the drivers. Yet the fact remains that there is HUGE untapped pool of talent that could work on the drivers for free. Besides that, if the drivers were open, the kernel-developers could work on their end to make sure things worked. They can't do that right now, so they ignore all NV-related errors that they counter (since they have no way of knowing whether the problem is with the kernel, or with the NV-drivers).

NV-devels know their drivers. Kernel-guys know the kernel. Xfree-guys know Xfree. Right now, two of those (Kernel and Xfree-guys) have to work in the dark when it comes to supporting NV-products. It's bound to cause some problems.

Will I be buying NV-products in the future because of this thing? Most likely yes. I'm not some GPL-zealot or anything, I buy what works. And NV-drivers mostly work. But while I recognize that, I also know that they could work SO much better if they were open. Hell, we might have native drivers for Freedesktop.org's X Server by now! we would propably have working framebuffer-drivers by now!

It's not like people are saying "Boo! NVIDIA sucks!". What they are saying is that "Thank you for your support. But your drivers still have some bugs. Could we look at the problems and try to fix it ourself? That way you would get even better drivers (and through that, even better product), and you would get even more satisfied Linux-users".
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Old 02-02-04, 12:37 PM   #29
broose
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Quote:
Originally posted by energyman76b
Hi,

well, you can mod your car, but you maybe are not allowed to use it on public property anymore, won't get spare parts or can't use 'official' workshops.
Plus, manipulating the software of your car will certainly void any assurance...

So, in theory, you can do a lot of thing. In practise, not.
We can all start to get silly and unconstructive here. So heres me getting silly to your reply.

I may only want to off-road it the car I've just modified. As said in my post. KNOWING FULL WELL THE WARRANTY WILL BE VOID!

But at the end of the day it will be my decision to do what I please with something that I own.
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Old 02-02-04, 08:06 PM   #30
energyman76b
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Hi,

well, asume company A builds nics and lizences IP about this nics to other companys.

One of these companys could be nvidia. And because they lizenced it, they can not open it. Company A instead can do what they want, like open the specs for their cards and forbid it their licencees, or make it very expensive.
There are a lot of reasons to buy foreign ip, even for a nic, and a lot of madness out there.
Or they incorporated some foreign ip (without knowing it) and did not ask any owners?
It is not easy today to make anything without touching some ip/patents of somebody else so...
maybe nvidias laywers are the blocking part? Why risk some unpleasant and very expensive trouble, even if you are innocent , if all you need to protect yourself is not to open your driver sources&specs?

Edit:
I do not believe that nvidia misbehaves in any point, this are pure examples, why a company could not whish to open their drivers. And there are a lot of more reasons outside.
If you are so great, why not try and get that job?
Then you will know, why nvidia can not open the sources.

Last edited by energyman76b; 02-02-04 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 02-02-04, 08:56 PM   #31
broose
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Quote:
Originally posted by energyman76b
Hi,

well, asume company A builds nics and lizences IP about this nics to other companys.

One of these companys could be nvidia. And because they lizenced it, they can not open it. Company A instead can do what they want, like open the specs for their cards and forbid it their licencees, or make it very expensive.
There are a lot of reasons to buy foreign ip, even for a nic, and a lot of madness out there.
Or they incorporated some foreign ip (without knowing it) and did not ask any owners?
It is not easy today to make anything without touching some ip/patents of somebody else so...
maybe nvidias laywers are the blocking part? Why risk some unpleasant and very expensive trouble, even if you are innocent , if all you need to protect yourself is not to open your driver sources&specs?

Edit:
I do not believe that nvidia misbehaves in any point, this are pure examples, why a company could not whish to open their drivers. And there are a lot of more reasons outside.
If you are so great, why not try and get that job?
Then you will know, why nvidia can not open the sources.
Ok. That I think we all understand - if true, just say for arguments sake it is. Why does that stop them from releasing documentation of the low level graphics calls (no proprietry driver needed), so that developers such as DirectFB developers can progress thier software without the need to develop using trial and error methods. It's this lack of cooperation on behalf of the manufacturers that holds back Linux in the mainstream. Linux Console framebuffer drivers (say nvidiafb) seems to be an area nVidia are not interested in supporting! If that's the case, why not let a third party like DirectFB do the developing freely for them, surely that should benefit both nVidia and the linux community.

Is this really too much to ask, or am I being nieve, thick or to idealistic.
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Old 02-02-04, 09:45 PM   #32
CrLf
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It would be nice if the nvidia drivers were opensource, however they are not. At this moment I think it's bad to bash nvidia about that. They are making some rather good drivers and seem interested in having their hardware working under linux unlike many other companies who seem to ignore the fact that linux users, albeit a mere bleep in their radars, also buy graphics cards and will buy the ones that work. Well, from my experience, nvidias work best.
There is room for improvement, the drivers could have new releases more often (they could release official "this may melt your card" betas to expose bugs sooner) but I guess there is more time being invested in the windows drivers that the Linux/FreeBSD/whatever ones (unfortunately).
There is one thing that seriously bugs me tough, which seems to be the reason most folks want opensource drivers, it the "what if they drop support" feeling. This is a risk, and this is the reason I would also like to see opensource nvidia drivers (but if they keep up the good work they are not strictly necessary).

But I don't resist asking them to opensource as much as they can from the drivers, at least that NvAGP stuff could be opensource. What's the reason to have agpgart and nvagp when agpgart is even the default...?

As a final note, nvidia should release the specs for their older cards (like the TNTs) to the maximum extent possible (of course if there are bits in common with their recent products this may be difficult). This way we could see this hardware working as it should. I have TNT2's in use in several computers and the nvidia drivers still have the very same bugs they had years ago. The nv driver, on the other hand, works ok but doesn't support Xvideo or OpenGL (these cards are mainly for 2D but sometimes 3D accel is useful for those nice GL hacks from xscreensaver). My Geforce works perfectly tough
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Old 02-03-04, 02:17 AM   #33
Nemesis77
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Quote:
Originally posted by energyman76b
Hi,

well, asume company A builds nics and lizences IP about this nics to other companys.

One of these companys could be nvidia. And because they lizenced it, they can not open it.


Sure they can open them! That is, if the party that licensed the IP to them lets them do that. And like I said, there's not really that much innovation going on in the NIC-business, so I find it really difficult to swallow that their NIC has some uber-secret stuff in it.

Quote:
If you are so great, why not try and get that job?
Then you will know, why nvidia can not open the sources.
I never said that I was "great". Hell, I couldn't code my way out of an empty room if I had to! But that does not mean that I'm not allowed to voice my opinion about this matter.
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Old 02-03-04, 03:24 PM   #34
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Can we knock off the stupid analogies?

NV is perfectly capable of releasing the source to their drivers and stripping out te third party IP. They don't have to use the GPL, the LGPL, or BSD license and are perfectly capable of making their own license. They could print out the source, take a black magic marker to the IP, and take pictures of it. They could then call it the "BMMOSS" license and release jpegs.

Thank you for your time,
Frank Russo
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Old 02-03-04, 08:50 PM   #35
predninja
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i agree that thread is right, they shouldnt whining about nvidia driver is too hard to install on your system or something about. noob people, be quiet! if you have problem with your new driver trying install, try sh ./nvidiaxxxxxx --help. that for more information and check at nvidia site for FAQ. dont bitch at nvidia, nor emailing to nvidia with your whining about open source driver. i have no problems with my nice driver so far.... i able to run opengl rendering after nvidia driver installed.

and stop whining over nvidia close source driver. them driver is fine. it's great. i am not whining or bitching about it. patient is key.

you need be patient! and dont whine about.

thanks folks.


Last edited by predninja; 02-03-04 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 02-03-04, 09:27 PM   #36
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The one thing that some of you people seem to be forgetting is that NVIDIA is under no obligation whatsoever to provide you with Linux drivers. But out of the kindness of their hearts, they are paying a staff of trained driver writer to churn out code for your cards, when those same people could be doing other things that would probably be more beneficial to the company.

I would love to see NVIDIA stop developing for Linux all together for a while, then we'll see the true side of some of you ingrates.
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