Go Back   nV News Forums > Software Forums > Gaming Central

Newegg Daily Deals

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-30-04, 12:57 PM   #13
Nitz Walsh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 622
Default Re: Am I the only one upset with the recent trend of PC games?

Quote:
Originally Posted by poursoul
i don't get it nick, i'm running a GF4Ti4200 64MB with a P4 1.6 512MB of SDRAM and i can play SC: PT just great maxed out. No AA or AF of course, but your system creams mine with the exception of the videocard and that's only by a hair.
Same card as me, but don't forget the GF4 series have dual vertex shaders as opposed to the GF3's one (the Xbox has dual vertex shaders as well), and more bandwidth optimization. Depending on the title it can usually make quite a bit of difference.

Nick is simply using a very old videocard, period - it's a huge bottleneck in his system. My GF4 4200 is about 2 years old by now and I'm still waiting for 9800 pro prices to drop even a little bit further. Snake's CPU is blazing, his motherboard is great - heck, even a $100 regular non-pro 9600 would be a huge boost over his GF3, and looking through pricewatch that will even get you a 256 MB model.
Nitz Walsh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-04, 01:02 PM   #14
NickSpolec
 
NickSpolec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Burning Inferno, Arizona
Posts: 371
Default Re: Am I the only one upset with the recent trend of PC games?

Quote:
I'm so tired of seeing us debate and purchase the lastest/greatest enthusiasts products only for devs to continue to write games for outdated hardware. Its long been time to see more scalable engines that make the most of out the products availible today and yet offer acceptable performance older generations products.
I'm not disagreeing with that, but it's only true if they are developing a game so it can be played on a GF2 MX. The GF2 class of cards is nothing like the GF3/GF4/Radeon 8500 line of cards.


Quote:
Sorry NickSpolec but it does sound like your winning a bit.
Ok, I'm not going to quote you further because I think I need to point something out.

This is NOT about me and my own pit of sorrow, having a card that can't pull it's own in today's games. I don't really care about that.. I will probably get a newer card in a month or so. But even when I do this issue won't go away for me. Because this is about is PC developers developing their games based on outrageous systems to achieve their visuals, when they could achieve similar visuals on lesser hardware if they actually put more effort into it. And they could certainly get more out of the brand new hardware if they focused on that. The Radeon 9x00/GeForce FX series of cards are very powerful, and could do AMAZING things. But will we ever truly see games that REALLY take advantage of these hardware? Or will developers only briefly attempt to exploit their abilities before moving on?

I guess it really comes down to PC developer LAZINESS. It's as if they are unwilling to put in the LEAST amount of effort exploiting existing hardware to get good frames/good visuals, and instead simply want the next best thing because it means that much less work to get those same good frames/good visuals. Why spend any time trying to optimize a game for lasts generation's cards when the new generation is twice as powerful, and doesn't need much optimization at all to get the same level of performance?

It's like the PC game industry is cannibalizing the hardware industry.. You never get to find out what a card can truly do because developers don't seem to care to actually try and exposed it.

That's what this all comes down too.

And if anyone makes the BS argument that "Well, I hate it when the developers make a game playable on old hardware". Get your facts straight. The GF3 may be old, but it is certainly not outdated when it comes to power OR ability. It is only by the standards of development cycles is it outdated. Which is complete BS.

I also don't want to hear about how the PC is about upgrading. It's only becase the sloppy, unfocused world that the PC industry seems to be. It's how we are being pushed to upgrade. "Why even spend any time optimizing when newer, faster hardware is coming out?"

Quote:
and i can play SC: PT just great maxed out.
What's your definition of "just great"? Want to put up some numbers? What resolution?


Quote:
Basically, you want to play modern games but don't want to drop the details down to console-level, at the same time noting that you prefer to play games on consoles because you don't have the option of changing any detail levels to suit your personal prefernces regarding performance.
Bullsh*t I never said ANYTHING to the likes of "you want to play modern games but don't want to drop the details down to console-level". Don't try and twist my words around.

Simply refer to my previous paragraph.
__________________
Snake's System:

[size=1][list][*]AthlonXP Mobile 2500+ (@2.5ghz, 1.850v)[*]Albatron KX18D PRO (NForce 2 Ultra @227FSB)[*]512MB's OCZ Platinum PC3200 EL (@DDR454, CAS 2.5, 6,3,3)[*]GeForce3 (@230c, 460m)[*]Fortissimo III, Gamesurround 7.1[*]POS Intel 56k Modem (soon to get high speed, though)[*]Maxtor DiamondPlus 9 120GB, ATA133 (8mb)[*]Samsung DVD/CD-RW Combo (52x32x52x16x)[*]Lite-On LTR 16102B (16x8x40x)

[/size][/list]
NickSpolec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-04, 01:30 PM   #15
NickSpolec
 
NickSpolec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Burning Inferno, Arizona
Posts: 371
Default Re: Am I the only one upset with the recent trend of PC games?

I'm going to backtrack a little to cover the other replies that I skipped over "get to the meat".



Quote:
I've found that upgrading your video card once a year keeps you up to date without breaking the bank. I try to get vid cards second hand from friends that have the upgrade bug, too - that helps. But right now, if you did some research and put down about $120 for a 9500 NP that was capable of taking a Softmod, your system would be great.

*double checks Snake system specs*

An Athlon XP Mobile? Do you have a laptop? Laptop gaming performance is always behind desktop gaming performance - that may be your problem right there.

1) I did used to have a 9500 NP (256bit) that softmodded. Key word is DID.

2) It's a mobile processor in a desktop system. I was wishing for 2.7ghz on air out (and a max volts of 1.850) of it, but I was only really hoping to get 2.5ghz, which I did. If I had water cooling or a refridge setup, I'm sure I could get to 2.7ghz using 1.950 volts or higher. But there is no way I will go past 1.850 on air cooling (though my idle is only around 28 - 32c, and load around 36 to 42c).




Quote:
Noone thinks they have to upgrade anymore I guess. They expect the newest games to play on thier aging 7000's and Geforce2's with super high grapics enables and that just isn't the case. Heck. Most people still play games that are 3-5 years old still. I still play UT, Mechwarrior 4, Diablo 2, Everquest, and a slew of older games that don't even require a fraction of the power my rig can generate. I DO realize, however, that if I want to be able to play Doom 3, Farcry, HL2, and such, it wont be on a 1ghz pentium 3, 256 pc 133, and a Radeon 7000 and I WILL want to play these games when they come out. Either **** or get off the pot.

You comparing the relatively weak GF2 and Radeon 7000 to the Geforce3? I understand your argument, "PC developers shouldn't focus on old hardware", but that would only be valid if the GF3 was underpowered, which it isn't. It is very capable hardware.
__________________
Snake's System:

[size=1][list][*]AthlonXP Mobile 2500+ (@2.5ghz, 1.850v)[*]Albatron KX18D PRO (NForce 2 Ultra @227FSB)[*]512MB's OCZ Platinum PC3200 EL (@DDR454, CAS 2.5, 6,3,3)[*]GeForce3 (@230c, 460m)[*]Fortissimo III, Gamesurround 7.1[*]POS Intel 56k Modem (soon to get high speed, though)[*]Maxtor DiamondPlus 9 120GB, ATA133 (8mb)[*]Samsung DVD/CD-RW Combo (52x32x52x16x)[*]Lite-On LTR 16102B (16x8x40x)

[/size][/list]

Last edited by NickSpolec; 03-30-04 at 01:56 PM.
NickSpolec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-04, 02:15 PM   #16
Nutty
Sittin in the Sun
 
Nutty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,835
Send a message via MSN to Nutty
Default Re: Am I the only one upset with the recent trend of PC games?

PC developers are lazy.. not like us console coders..

"Too slow?! Dang.. lets wait a few months till NV/ATI make some new hardware, then stick it on the shelf".

"Crashes?! Ahh ship it, we'll do a patch next week.. "

etc..
Nutty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-04, 02:18 PM   #17
NickSpolec
 
NickSpolec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Burning Inferno, Arizona
Posts: 371
Default Re: Am I the only one upset with the recent trend of PC games?

Quote:
"Too slow?! Dang.. lets wait a few months till NV/ATI make some new hardware, then stick it on the shelf".
EXACTLY my point.
__________________
Snake's System:

[size=1][list][*]AthlonXP Mobile 2500+ (@2.5ghz, 1.850v)[*]Albatron KX18D PRO (NForce 2 Ultra @227FSB)[*]512MB's OCZ Platinum PC3200 EL (@DDR454, CAS 2.5, 6,3,3)[*]GeForce3 (@230c, 460m)[*]Fortissimo III, Gamesurround 7.1[*]POS Intel 56k Modem (soon to get high speed, though)[*]Maxtor DiamondPlus 9 120GB, ATA133 (8mb)[*]Samsung DVD/CD-RW Combo (52x32x52x16x)[*]Lite-On LTR 16102B (16x8x40x)

[/size][/list]
NickSpolec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-04, 02:53 PM   #18
DiscipleDOC
 
DiscipleDOC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Alabama, Planet Earth
Posts: 5,993
Default Re: Am I the only one upset with the recent trend of PC games?

I'm glad that the dev's are optimizing our systems, but I wish they would do some more R&D for Linux systems now.
DiscipleDOC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-04, 02:55 PM   #19
jbirney
Registered User
 
jbirney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,430
Default Re: Am I the only one upset with the recent trend of PC games?

Quote:
But even when I do this issue won't go away for me. Because this is about is PC developers developing their games based on outrageous systems to achieve their visuals, when they could achieve similar visuals on lesser hardware if they actually put more effort into it. And they could certainly get more out of the brand new hardware if they focused on that. The Radeon 9x00/GeForce FX series of cards are very powerful, and could do AMAZING things. But will we ever truly see games that REALLY take advantage of these hardware? Or will developers only briefly attempt to exploit their abilities before moving on?
So if you know so much about devleopment when is your new game coming out again? Do you realize that these people are on very strict scedules? Do you know how much work it takes to make a game? I highly doubt it. I have been working on popular UT mod for years. Spend at least 20+ hrs a week on it in my spare time. And with a team of 10 of us we still have not done 1/2 the stuff we wanted to in the last year. And we are just making a simple mod. Multiply that by x100 for a game, then another x100 if we have to develope the engine. You make it sound so simple when in fact its a very difficult process to make a good game and still ship on time.

Quote:
And if anyone makes the BS argument that "Well, I hate it when the developers make a game playable on old hardware". Get your facts straight. The GF3 may be old, but it is certainly not outdated when it comes to power OR ability. It is only by the standards of development cycles is it outdated. Which is complete BS.]
GF3 is fast enough? BS. It lacks many of the DX9 features that you simply can not do on a DX8 card. You can only optimize so much for the lower fill rate. Sooner or later you gonna to have to cut out effects in oder to get any decent playable framerate of the card.
jbirney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-04, 02:58 PM   #20
Nutty
Sittin in the Sun
 
Nutty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,835
Send a message via MSN to Nutty
Default Re: Am I the only one upset with the recent trend of PC games?

Quote:
GF3 is fast enough? BS. It lacks many of the DX9 features that you simply can not do on a DX8 card. You can only optimize so much for the lower fill rate. Sooner or later you gonna to have to cut out effects in oder to get any decent playable framerate of the card.
Its not about features, it about using the available power to its fullest..
tbh, I've seen alot more impressive stuff on Xbox, which is only a 733Mhz cpu, and a slow GF3 with an extra vertex unit, than similar stuff on pc, given the same specs.

Because its a fixed spec, developers can hand tune the code to the hardware, and you get more out of it. With PC development, because theres soo much to cater for, you dont have the luxury of optimizing every specific card as much.

John Carmack said, that he reckoned he could get another 20% performance out the doom3 engine, if he coded the Xbox version, because he could tune the engine to match the Xbox hardware perfectly, rather than being a balance of all pc hardware.

Last edited by Nutty; 03-30-04 at 03:09 PM.
Nutty is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 03-30-04, 09:27 PM   #21
Edge
3d animator for hire!
 
Edge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 3,564
Default Re: Am I the only one upset with the recent trend of PC games?

I don't think PC games are being over-demanding. Remember: even a GF3 will play almost any recent game just fine at 800x600 or 1024x768 resolution, and for a 3 year old card I'd say that's pretty impressive. It would've been like using a Voodoo 3 in 2002. On my XP2000 with a TI4200, I can run Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomarrow just fine at 1152x864 resolution with lvl2 aniso, and I'd say that's more than enough. Could it be better? Of course, but new cards are ALWAYS going to have the luxury of being able to run games at max settings, while older cards will have to tone down a few options to look good. Also with Max Payne 2, remember that they had a long time to tweak that engine and really get a lot more out of the cards. Hell, Max Payne 1 probably ran WORSE!

But the Geforce 3 is still a powerful card. DX9 features are nothing major, and the clockspeeds on it are still decent (even a TI200 has RAM as fast as a 9600 card). Obviously, it's not AS GOOD AS recent cards, but if you spent $400 on a GF3 when it was released, I think by now, 3 years later, you've gotten more than your money's worth out of it.

BTW Nutty, when you've coded games for consoles have you noticed any big performance improvements you were able to code because it was a fixed platform? I mean like certain effects practically being "free" on a console when on the PC it would've been hard to impliment and a drain on resources? Oh, and you never did answer the question I asked about the Gamecube's shaders in that Serious Sam 2 thread
But in any case, congradulations on your 1000th post
Edge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-04, 09:30 PM   #22
Arrghman
Mostly Lurking
 
Arrghman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 43
Default Re: Am I the only one upset with the recent trend of PC games?

How is this a recent trend?

Original Quake looked pretty good, but GLQuake looked MUCH better... and you had to buy an entierly seperate video accelerator to do that! This has been the case since 3D accelerators were available, and is nothing new at all. Heck, I remember trying to play Wing Commander II on my old IBM computer when I was but a young lad and my 1x CD drive couldn't stream the cutscenes from the CD to the screen fast enough... it probably required a 2x. So instead I got choppy animation and I just had to deal with it until I could convince my parents that a faster CD drive was the most important thing to buy in the whole world

And not only that but you can only scale back an engine so far before it starts degrading the gameplay or creating too much production time. In games where physics engines are actually integral to the gameplay (Max Payne 2, HL2....) you can't just turn off the physics system so the CPU isn't as heavily loaded because now your changing the way the game is meant to be played. Similarly with graphics, you also can't realistically have 20 LODs for all the game assets because this would greatly increase the production time (even if a program was used to generate lower poly versions of the existing models, UV coords would probably have to be done by hand, or at least tweaked) and also increase the amount of size the game takes up (UT2K4 on 8+ CD's would really be pushing it!)

The PC gaming industry has always been pushing forward towards higher requirements because the average gamer's computer keeps rising in requirements. Until some sort of bottleneck in PC hardware is reached (who really knows what's going to happen in 10 years when we can't shrink transistors any smaller?), then this trend is just going to continue.
Arrghman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-04, 10:02 PM   #23
SuLinUX
 
SuLinUX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 847
Default Re: Am I the only one upset with the recent trend of PC games?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutty
Its not about features, it about using the available power to its fullest..
tbh, I've seen alot more impressive stuff on Xbox, which is only a 733Mhz cpu, and a slow GF3 with an extra vertex unit, than similar stuff on pc, given the same specs.

Because its a fixed spec, developers can hand tune the code to the hardware, and you get more out of it. With PC development, because theres soo much to cater for, you dont have the luxury of optimizing every specific card as much.

John Carmack said, that he reckoned he could get another 20% performance out the doom3 engine, if he coded the Xbox version, because he could tune the engine to match the Xbox hardware perfectly, rather than being a balance of all pc hardware.
Yer, PC has bottlenecks everywhere, bus, AGP, driver, ect... consoles have non of that, like you say the hardware is fix with no bottlenecks.
__________________
AthlonXP 2600+ / nForce2 Asus A7N8X-X / PNY GeForce FX5900 Ultra / 1024Mb Samsung Ram /nForce Sound / Hansol 920D Plus 19" monitor / Lite-On 32x12x40 / 2x Maxtor HD 40Gb/80Gb / nVidia 7174 driver / Gnome 2.10.1 / Kernel 2.6.11.9 / Slackware 10.0
SuLinUX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-04, 02:16 AM   #24
Edge
3d animator for hire!
 
Edge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 3,564
Default Re: Am I the only one upset with the recent trend of PC games?

Uhh, I certainly wouldn't go as far as saying the PS2 has NO bottlenecks
Edge is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Console Killers News Archived News Items 0 06-11-12 10:10 PM
Rumor: Sony Cloud Deal Will Make PS3 Backwards Compatible, Stream PS2/PS1 games News Archived News Items 0 06-01-12 12:10 PM
When will we see DVD based games? thcdru2k Gaming Central 34 05-31-12 08:58 PM
PC Games, CeleronII 566, CeleronA 300, BIOS Savior, Heatsinks, NES & Sega Items +pics TekViper For Sale/Trade 5 08-07-02 10:48 PM

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1998 - 2014, nV News.