Go Back   nV News Forums > Software Forums > Gaming Central

Newegg Daily Deals

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-05-04, 10:59 AM   #37
theultimo
DoD + Sharepoint=Headache
 
theultimo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Iraq
Posts: 667
Default Re: Far Cry: OpenGL or DX9?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumphil
If thats the argument, well the standards are all off.. Bring back Glide!. .
Considering Glide was an OpenGl-type API which could only be used on 1 chipset, It esentially was worthless to other cards. OpenGL 1.5/2.0 contains extentions, yes, but are also coded with a fallback renderer (ARB) just in case they don't support it. Since it's a TWIMTBP game, its probably using NV_ extentions for nVidia, and relying on ARB with ATI/XGI/etc.
__________________
MAIN MACHINE: Macbook Pro Currently being used in Clamshell Mode | Core Duo 2.16 | 2GB DDR-2 667 | Mobility Radeon X1600 256MB (Underclocked version) | Windows Vista/OS X | 19' Viewsonic 1912wb
UMPC: Samsung Q1 | 512MB DDR-2 | 40GB | Xp Tablet PC 2005 | Intel GMA 900
XBOX Live Gamertag: theultimos
theultimo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-04, 04:02 PM   #38
ChrisRay
Registered User
 
ChrisRay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 5,101
Default Re: Far Cry: OpenGL or DX9?

Quote:
ok, so have I got this straight. The advantage in using openGL is that features that are otherwise hidden in the FX series feature set can be used (through the use of fragment extentions).. Where as DX has a fixed shader profile, openGl can use any features of the underlying hardware, and so extra shading performance can be gained.

If thats the argument, well the standards are all off.. Bring back Glide!. If you are using vendor specific extentions, you no longer have a standard openGL. So code written this way will not work on openGL compliant hardware, except for NVIDIAs..

This isnt an argument, This is the fact, Nvidias Extensions bring out the best in Performance in OpenGL, Its not glide, OpenGL is open source which means nvidia can optimise it anyway they want, OpenGL has fallbacks for arb extensions, And It can be compiled several times to to different profiles, (Arb, NV_Fragment ect) dependent on hardware used,


Quote:
As to me being hell bent against the idea that shader profiles can be biased, that is incorrect. The degree to which a shader profile is biased agains a specific architecture bears a direct relationship to how well the underlying hardware can process the features exposed by the specific shader profile. Your idea of switching to open GL to get away from unfriendly shader profile only works if the opengl 2 standard, when it comes out, supports these features.. Otherwise we are talking nvidia vs direct X, not openGL vs direct X.
The OpenGL Shader fragment profiles already exist, It doesnt stop people from using NV_Fragment Shader extensions for optimal performance, An Example. Doom 3 uses Arb_vertex for its Vertex and Geometry proccessing, And NV_Fragment for its Shader extensions, Offering different levels of features over that ARB_fragment.

That being said this isnt an Nvidia VX DirectX argument, Shader 2_0a is a directx Profile, And Shader_2.0 is a DirectX profile, 2.0A is basically an Nvidia profile because it unlocks the multiple precision levels, PP, And 512 Instruction counts ect ectm, That 2.0 does not, NV_Fragments offer similar levels of customability Over Arb_Fragment.


Quote:
yes, of course re-writing is necessary, but most of the features have functional equivalents (by virtue of the fact that they all run on the same hardware, and most ways of doing things in 3d are the same, if expressed through different abstraction), and data can be transposed into different formats.
Everything has a functional equivalent, But you have been making it out to be like API are more like a backend to hardware, They arent, They require significant changes to code to be able to render the same thing.


Quote:
which basically means if you use nvidia propritery extentions you can gain speed.. Thats got nothing to do with open GL vs DX.. Thats got to do with closed vs open standards. The fact that you could gain speed like this because you can write your own non standard extentions for open GL.. This is great for experimentation with new features, but effectively breaks open gl as a standard. May as well call it nvidiaGL.
And right back to the start, nvidias extensions aren't faster than the "standard" at the exact same task, they are different, and do different things. If you had extensions that do the exact same thing, the only reason one would be faster would be if the shader compiler isn't optimised properly
Obviously, But this is Why Nvidia has always been faster in OpenGL, its always been this way, From the Day of Multitexture to Dot Bump Mapping to Shader Fragment extensions. Nvidias OpenGL Drivers are extremely optimised for Nvidia hardware, Just like ATIS are optimised for ATI hardware, And XGI are optimised for Nvidia hardware.

OpenGL isnt faster. Nvidias OpenGL Drivers are faster, This should be abundantly clear by how much more customizable Nvidias OpenGL drivers are in Comparison to its DirectX Drivers, This is the advantage of OpenGL bein Opensource.


Quote:
Also you are putting too much weight behind claims that performance on the FX line has a lot to do with this register optimisation business.. Well, the register optimisations HAS been done and included in the NVIDIA shader compiler. So we allready have that speed increase. And the fact is that the reason it made very little difference was that the performance of the FX line doing ps2.0 is mostly down to lack of shader horsepower rather than bad register implementation or something.. (ask they beyond 3d boys about that one too, they actually did a FX architecture revealed article a while back examining exactly these issues.)
I have presented Evidence that under optimal programming Enviroments. Nvidia Cards gain a 5-10% Performance Gain, If OpenGL is offering a 5-10% performance gain for Nvidia users, It could very well because they are using NV_Fragment programs. The OpenGL renderer IS using shaders, And I find it incredibly unlikely they are running ARB_Fragment extensions to run Nvidia hardware, Since AFAIK, OpenGL does not support a shader2_0A profile for GLSL like HLSL does for DirectX, They'd simply have to get optimal Performance.


Quote:
For anyone who remember the start of this thread I was basically saying to people who wanna run far cry in open GL mode, don't, because a lot of rendering features are missing from its open GL mode.
This thread went this direction because this was a directx game and not meant for OpenGL, When obviously OpenGL is capable of Running several of the features, You Said that the API itself is not faster (This is true) But the Drivers (are) Faster.


Quote:
I think you are a bit confused at to exactly what a compiler does. I have been talking about shader compilers, which take DXSL or GLSL and turn it into machinecode which is fed to the shader units in the GFX card. Nvidias compiler technology IS the complier which takes DXSL and GLSL and turns it into machine code. Same as ATI has a shader compiler for their shader units.

Nvidia just improved their compiler, not added a new one to the stack.



For reference, my line of posting has largely been in response to this inital starter from you
I'm not confused by What a Compiler Does, there are two different kinds of compilers which would be relevent to this discussion. Nvidias UNified Driver Compiler, And a HLSL, and GSLS Code Compile Which compiles Code down to a DirectX or OpenGL Run Time.

Nvidias Unified Compiler can offer performance improvements, But something coded in HLSL language in shader2_0A in HLSL is going to perform better for Nvidia than something coded in HLSL_2.0 or HLSL_2.0B Because of register friendly code.
__________________
|CPU: Intel I7 Lynnfield @ 3.0 Ghz|Mobo:Asus P7P55 WS Supercomputer |Memory:8 Gigs DDR3 1333|Video:Geforce GTX 295 Quad SLI|Monitor:Samsung Syncmaster 1680x1080 3D Vision\/Olevia 27 Inch Widescreen HDTV 1920x1080

|CPU: AMD Phenom 9600 Black Edition @ 2.5 Ghz|Mobo:Asus M3n HT Deluxe Nforce 780A|Memory: 4 gigs DDR2 800| Video: Geforce GTX 280x2 SLI

Nzone
SLI Forum Administrator

NVIDIA User Group Members receive free software and/or hardware from NVIDIA from time to time to facilitate the evaluation of NVIDIA products. However, the opinions expressed are solely those of the members
ChrisRay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-04, 04:19 PM   #39
theultimo
DoD + Sharepoint=Headache
 
theultimo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Iraq
Posts: 667
Default Re: Far Cry: OpenGL or DX9?

From Far Cry Forums (even someone running it in LINUX W/ WINE, not possible w/DX9):
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/6/ubb.x?a=...91&m=261105823
posted Sun April 04 2004 11:54 PM
Actually.. the game works very, very well in OpenGL.

It even has some nice pixel shading effects, obviously not using the DX9 pixel shading stuff, but somehow or another my card is rendering beautifull effects wihch are commonly attributed to PS, under OpenGL

stuff like shiny metal, full reflections in the water, etc, etc.. all the stuff I didn't have before i bought my new "dx9" compatible card


so don't be so quick to discard the opengl mode

that said, it DOES look a bit better in DX9. I wouldn't suggest switching in windows, I'm only running OpenGL in Linux (yep, game works beautifully with winex.. even works faster than it does in windows, probably because of OGL vs DX), because linux obviously doesnt support DirectX.
__________________
MAIN MACHINE: Macbook Pro Currently being used in Clamshell Mode | Core Duo 2.16 | 2GB DDR-2 667 | Mobility Radeon X1600 256MB (Underclocked version) | Windows Vista/OS X | 19' Viewsonic 1912wb
UMPC: Samsung Q1 | 512MB DDR-2 | 40GB | Xp Tablet PC 2005 | Intel GMA 900
XBOX Live Gamertag: theultimos
theultimo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-04, 11:41 PM   #40
Drumphil
 
Drumphil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: BANNED!
Posts: 290
Default Re: Far Cry: OpenGL or DX9?

"But you have been making it out to be like API are more like a backend to hardware, They arent"

they are partly, and if they aren't then what else is inbetween them and the hardware that isn't common to gl and dx. There are a few layers of abstraction, but the API is still one of em. anyway, how have i "been making it out to be like API are more like a backed to hardware"

'It even has some nice pixel shading effects, obviously not using the DX9 pixel shading stuff, but somehow or another my card is rendering beautifull effects wihch are commonly attributed to PS, under OpenGL"

I'd take a guess and say that the openGL mode uses ps1.1 level shaders, but doesn't support ps2.0 type shaders.. Thats just my guess from looking at it.

anyways, i give up on this thread.
__________________
not banned

Last edited by Drumphil; 04-06-04 at 12:28 AM.
Drumphil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-04, 07:21 PM   #41
Blacklash
8^9^3
 
Blacklash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Old Vizima
Posts: 3,679
Default Re: Far Cry: OpenGL or DX9?

Anyone interested in trying OpenGL just set r_driver inthe system.cfg to "OpenGL". I don't use it myself, but I did try it for giggles.
__________________
Intel Core i7 920 @ 3.96GHz (1.36v)|Mushkin 998681 XP3-12800 (3x2GB)
ASUS TUF Sabertooth (X58)|ASUS GTX 580 DirectCU II (980|4604)|ASUS PA246Q
WD VelociRaptor 150GB HD (x2)|Pioneer DVR-2920Q|LG GH22LS30|Klipsch PM20 2.0
SilverStone OP1000-E|SilverStone TJ10-B|Thermalright U-120 Extreme|Win 7 HP x64
Blacklash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-04, 08:26 AM   #42
zoomy942
 
zoomy942's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Bellevue, ID
Posts: 5,338
Send a message via AIM to zoomy942 Send a message via MSN to zoomy942
Default Re: Far Cry: OpenGL or DX9?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malficar
Anyone interested in trying OpenGL just set r_driver inthe system.cfg to "OpenGL". I don't use it myself, but I did try it for giggles.
i tried it but it wont run right and its killing me! i want to play it and it seems like a refresh rate thing but i dont know. lots of people are able to play it, byut i cant like this.
zoomy942 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-04, 02:35 PM   #43
theultimo
DoD + Sharepoint=Headache
 
theultimo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Iraq
Posts: 667
Default Re: Far Cry: OpenGL or DX9?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoomy942
i tried it but it wont run right and its killing me! i want to play it and it seems like a refresh rate thing but i dont know. lots of people are able to play it, byut i cant like this.
Try enabling v-sync...sounds like you have some tearing going on.
__________________
MAIN MACHINE: Macbook Pro Currently being used in Clamshell Mode | Core Duo 2.16 | 2GB DDR-2 667 | Mobility Radeon X1600 256MB (Underclocked version) | Windows Vista/OS X | 19' Viewsonic 1912wb
UMPC: Samsung Q1 | 512MB DDR-2 | 40GB | Xp Tablet PC 2005 | Intel GMA 900
XBOX Live Gamertag: theultimos
theultimo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-04, 03:34 PM   #44
zoomy942
 
zoomy942's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Bellevue, ID
Posts: 5,338
Send a message via AIM to zoomy942 Send a message via MSN to zoomy942
Default Re: Far Cry: OpenGL or DX9?

here is the crazy thing, i am pretty pc savvy, and i thought it was tearing.. but it only does it in the intro movies and in the main menu.. once the game starts.. it goes away.. but there are some graphical glitches. i dont know.
zoomy942 is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 04-09-04, 03:29 AM   #45
Blacklash
8^9^3
 
Blacklash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Old Vizima
Posts: 3,679
Default Re: Far Cry: OpenGL or DX9?

Hmm try limiting your pixel shaders to 1.1. in the driver panel. If everything is set to "very high" the game will request/use PS 2.0 at times. Keeping it at 1.1 may help. Yes this is a half arsed guess :P
__________________
Intel Core i7 920 @ 3.96GHz (1.36v)|Mushkin 998681 XP3-12800 (3x2GB)
ASUS TUF Sabertooth (X58)|ASUS GTX 580 DirectCU II (980|4604)|ASUS PA246Q
WD VelociRaptor 150GB HD (x2)|Pioneer DVR-2920Q|LG GH22LS30|Klipsch PM20 2.0
SilverStone OP1000-E|SilverStone TJ10-B|Thermalright U-120 Extreme|Win 7 HP x64
Blacklash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-04, 07:50 AM   #46
zoomy942
 
zoomy942's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Bellevue, ID
Posts: 5,338
Send a message via AIM to zoomy942 Send a message via MSN to zoomy942
Default Re: Far Cry: OpenGL or DX9?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malficar
Hmm try limiting your pixel shaders to 1.1. in the driver panel. If everything is set to "very high" the game will request/use PS 2.0 at times. Keeping it at 1.1 may help. Yes this is a half arsed guess :P

what do you mean limit it on the driver panel?
zoomy942 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-04, 03:07 PM   #47
Blacklash
8^9^3
 
Blacklash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Old Vizima
Posts: 3,679
Default Re: Far Cry: OpenGL or DX9?

I was thinking to select 'null ps 2.0' ,should be in your control panel for your video card under 'more direct 3d'. I am pretty sure anything under 'very high' on FX cards uses mostly 1.1 anyway.
__________________
Intel Core i7 920 @ 3.96GHz (1.36v)|Mushkin 998681 XP3-12800 (3x2GB)
ASUS TUF Sabertooth (X58)|ASUS GTX 580 DirectCU II (980|4604)|ASUS PA246Q
WD VelociRaptor 150GB HD (x2)|Pioneer DVR-2920Q|LG GH22LS30|Klipsch PM20 2.0
SilverStone OP1000-E|SilverStone TJ10-B|Thermalright U-120 Extreme|Win 7 HP x64
Blacklash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-04, 03:39 PM   #48
fivefeet8
Ngemu Mod
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 1,886
Default Re: Far Cry: OpenGL or DX9?

Here is a Far Cry log file with using OpenGL..

****** OpenGL Driver Stats ******
Driver: OpenGL32.dll
GL_VENDOR: NVIDIA Corporation
GL_RENDERER: GeForce FX 5950 Ultra/AGP/SSE/3DNOW!
GL_VERSION: 1.5.1
GL_EXTENSIONS:
GL_ARB_depth_texture
GL_ARB_fragment_program
GL_ARB_fragment_program_shadow
GL_ARB_fragment_shader
GL_ARB_imaging
GL_ARB_multisample
GL_ARB_multitexture
GL_ARB_occlusion_query
GL_ARB_point_parameters
GL_ARB_point_sprite
GL_ARB_shadow
GL_ARB_shader_objects
GL_ARB_shading_language_100
GL_ARB_texture_border_clamp
GL_ARB_texture_compression
GL_ARB_texture_cube_map
GL_ARB_texture_env_add
GL_ARB_texture_env_combine
GL_ARB_texture_env_dot3
GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat
GL_ARB_transpose_matrix
GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object
GL_ARB_vertex_program
GL_ARB_vertex_shader
GL_ARB_window_pos
GL_S3_s3tc
GL_EXT_texture_env_add
GL_EXT_abgr
GL_EXT_bgra
GL_EXT_blend_color
GL_EXT_blend_func_separate
GL_EXT_blend_minmax
GL_EXT_blend_subtract
GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array
GL_EXT_Cg_shader
GL_EXT_depth_bounds_test
GL_EXT_draw_range_elements
GL_EXT_fog_coord
GL_EXT_multi_draw_arrays
GL_EXT_packed_pixels
GL_EXT_paletted_texture
GL_EXT_pixel_buffer_object
GL_EXT_point_parameters
GL_EXT_rescale_normal
GL_EXT_secondary_color
GL_EXT_separate_specular_color
GL_EXT_shadow_funcs
GL_EXT_shared_texture_palette
GL_EXT_stencil_two_side
GL_EXT_stencil_wrap
GL_EXT_texture3D
GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc
GL_EXT_texture_cube_map
GL_EXT_texture_edge_clamp
GL_EXT_texture_env_combine
GL_EXT_texture_env_dot3
GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic
GL_EXT_texture_lod
GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias
GL_EXT_texture_object
GL_EXT_vertex_array
GL_HP_occlusion_test
GL_IBM_rasterpos_clip
GL_IBM_texture_mirrored_repeat
GL_KTX_buffer_region
GL_NV_blend_square
GL_NV_copy_depth_to_color
GL_NV_depth_clamp
GL_NV_fence
GL_NV_float_buffer
GL_NV_fog_distance
GL_NV_fragment_program
GL_NV_fragment_program_option
GL_NV_half_float
GL_NV_light_max_exponent
GL_NV_multisample_filter_hint
GL_NV_occlusion_query
GL_NV_packed_depth_stencil
GL_NV_pixel_data_range
GL_NV_point_sprite
GL_NV_primitive_restart
GL_NV_register_combiners
GL_NV_register_combiners2
GL_NV_texgen_reflection
GL_NV_texture_compression_vtc
GL_NV_texture_env_combine4
GL_NV_texture_expand_normal
GL_NV_texture_rectangle
GL_NV_texture_shader
GL_NV_texture_shader2
GL_NV_texture_shader3
GL_NV_vertex_array_range
GL_NV_vertex_array_range2
GL_NV_vertex_program
GL_NV_vertex_program1_1
GL_NV_vertex_program2
GL_NV_vertex_program2_option
GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap
GL_SGIS_texture_lod
GL_SGIX_depth_texture
GL_SGIX_shadow
GL_SUN_slice_accum
GL_WIN_swap_hint
WGL_EXT_swap_control
WGL_EXTENSIONS:
WGL_ARB_buffer_region
WGL_ARB_extensions_string
WGL_ARB_make_current_read
WGL_ARB_multisample
WGL_ARB_pbuffer
WGL_ARB_pixel_format
WGL_ARB_render_texture
WGL_EXT_extensions_string
WGL_EXT_swap_control
WGL_NV_float_buffer
WGL_NV_render_depth_texture
WGL_NV_render_texture_rectangle
...using GL_ARB_texture_compression
...using WGL_EXT_swap_control
...ignoring WGL_ARB_render_texture
...WGL_3DFX_gamma_control not found
...using GL_ARB_multisample
...ignoring WGL_ARB_pbuffer
...using WGL_ARB_pixel_format
...ignoring WGL_ARB_buffer_region
...using GL_ARB_texture_env_combine
...using GL_SGIX_depth_texture
...using GL_SGIX_shadow
...using GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap
...using GL_SGIS_texture_lod
...using GL_ARB_multitexture
...using GL_NV_texgen_reflection
...using GL_HP_occlusion_test
...using GL_NV_occlusion_query
...using GL_NV_multisample_filter_hint
...ignoring GL_NV_fog_distance
...GL_NV_texgen_emboss not found
...using GL_EXT_separate_specular_color
...using GL_EXT_texture_env_combine
...using GL_EXT_multi_draw_arrays
...using GL_NV_texture_env_combine4
...using GL_NV_point_sprite
...using GL_NV_vertex_array_range
...using GL_NV_fence
...using GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array.
...using GL_EXT_texture_env_add.
...using GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic.
...ignoring GL_EXT_bgra.
...using GL_EXT_depth_bounds_test.
...using GL_EXT_secondary_color.
...using GL_EXT_paletted_texture.
...using GL_EXT_stencil_two_side.
...using GL_EXT_stencil_wrap.
...using GL_NV_register_combiners.
...using GL_NV_register_combiners2.
...using GL_NV_vertex_program.
...using GL_ARB_vertex_program.
...using GL_NV_texture_shader.
...using GL_NV_texture_shader2.
...using GL_NV_texture_shader3.
...using GL_NV_texture_rectangle.
...GL_EXT_texture_rectangle not found.
...using GL_EXT_texture_cube_map.
...GL_ATI_separate_stencil not found.
...GL_ATI_fragment_shader not found.
...ignoring GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object.
...ignoring GL_NV_fragment_program.
...using GL_ARB_fragment_program.
...using GL_ARB_texture_env_combine.

Seems to be using PS1.1 for PS effects. Trying to enable PS2.0 effects results in the game not showing any graphics. So you can't use Very High levels of lighting. I think OGl is a good alternative for non DX9 compliant nvidia cards.
__________________
[i7 2600k @4.4ghertz][2x4 GB DDR3 1600][EVGA GTX570 1.280GB SC][EVGA GTX460 physx][Asrock Extreme7 Gen3 Z68][2xSeagate 160 Gb SATA HD raid0][Seagate 250 GB SATA2 HD][Sony Bravia 40' 1080p LCD HDTV][NEC 3520a DVD+-DLw][Windows 7 Ultimate x64][Rosewill 1000w]
fivefeet8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OpenGL book Airstrip1 Software Development 2 08-12-12 08:55 AM
Far Cry 3 preview and E3 presentation footage News Archived News Items 0 06-06-12 09:30 AM
Dante's Peak: DmC Devil May Cry PC-Bound In 2013 News Archived News Items 0 05-22-12 04:50 AM
Major WineX prob... I think it has to do with the vidcard... Linewbie NVIDIA Linux 20 10-09-02 09:58 PM
ATI R300 & nVidia NV30 - Different visions Uttar Rumor Mill 6 09-06-02 11:19 AM

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1998 - 2014, nV News.